[CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and what have they beenasked to do?

Jordan Carter jordan at internetnz.net.nz
Tue Jul 7 03:23:04 UTC 2015


I am pretty confident we can head that off as a risk, among many of the
other uncertainties, when we see what our legal team present to us. Am
looking forward to that.

The risk on the other side is that the IANA stewardship transition cannot
secure Congressional support, because the accountability framework is not
suitably robust.

So I'd repeat my urging of everyone to come out of their corners, so to
speak, and work through what we get in terms of new material from the legal
team...


cheers
Jordan

On 7 July 2015 at 15:00, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca> wrote:

>  Among the problems with Membership is that there are strong indications
> that several AC/SOs will not sign on as members (the ALAC is among them)
> leaving the possibility of very few members, and those members (or quite
> possibly member) would have the statutory power to unilaterally and
> irreversibly dissolve the corporation, and the IANA Names stewardship along
> with it.
>
> You might ask, "Why would they do that?" and I have no clue. But if we are
> determined to consider world with a rogue Board with not a single Board
> member who is objecting, then a rogue SO cannot be off the radar either.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> At 06/07/2015 09:01 PM, you wrote:
>
> Hello Avri,
>
>  I believe membership raises the issues of accountability to the full diversity
> of stakeholders to a much higher threshold, including the issue of the
> degree to which ICANN is accountable to stakeholders not included among
> our SG/C/RALO/ALS / as well as among parrticpating CCs and govts.
>
>
>
> Please, if possible, raise your concerns stating fact rather than belief.
> Maybe there is something I have missed. There is absolutely no difference
> in the openness to non ICANN stakeholders between the empowered membership
> and empowered designator models. At least I don't see any. Both are based
> upon the current SOAC's. If there is a difference in this area  I need to
> and want to be educated. Please respond with specific and detailed
> instances or examples of why what you claim is true is. Vague generalities
> are not particularly helpful. Again, I am open to be educated and persuaded
> but with substantive fact rather than vague as yet unsubstantiated beliefs.
>
> No model is as open to non SOAC's as is Malcolm's proposal for individual
> membership. That, again, is a membership model. Do you support this open
> membership model and if not why not? Would you prefer other models to be
> looked at that are not based upon the SOAC's? I think that would be a very
> reasonable position and one I certainly am open to supporting if a workable
> model would be proposed. As yet I have not seen one. Have you? Should we
> try to find one?
>   I think enough of the comments bring out questions of accountability in a
> mebership organization to make the membership option less than optimal.
>
>
>
> What comments are you referring to? Certainly not the public comments
> which were basically supportive of membership. Are these comments you refer
> to  based upon vague generalities or specific problems? If there are
> specific problems what specifically are they? Should we not determine
> whether there are solutions to those problems rather than just dismissing
> the model outright? If not, what are your views as to the ultimate apparent
> unenforceability of the designator model in certain areas? Do you disagree
> with Paul Rosenzweig when he states that "a direct community veto of budget
> and strategic plan remains essential to accountability"? If not, what do
> you propose to do in these areas without membership. Should we simply
> forget them?
>
> I do think there may be another option or two out there and hopefully
> working with our counsel we'll find them.
>
> In the interim,  I really am looking to be educated. No one has taught me
> more about ICANN since I became involved in it than you Avri. I'm just not
> easily persuadable by vague opinions, I'm a fact based sort of guy. As this
> process has moved forward I've seen your views and positions change. To me,
> that is an admirable  sign of someone truly looking for an optimal answer
> rather than one who is clinging to a defined position. I'm just having some
> trouble understanding, factually,  the specific objections you are now
> raising about membership. I hope you can help me understand so I can better
> test and evaluate my own views..
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
>  On 06-Jul-15 19:05, Edward Morris wrote: > +1. Well said. > > > On Mon,
> Jul 6, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Jonathan Zuck <JZuck at actonline.org > <
> mailto:JZuck at actonline.org <JZuck at actonline.org>>> wrote: > >  Hmm. I
> think it’s important to bear in mind that there was >  overwhelming
> consensus among the public comments to support the >  membership model.
> The detractors from the model, while important >  and perhaps critical,
> are not in the majority. I’m not sure this >  process speaks to how we
> better use counsel as much as how we >  achieve consensus on principles. >
> > > > > > >  *From:* accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org >  <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>> >  [mailto:
> accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org >  <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>>] *On >  Behalf Of
> *Seun Ojedeji >  *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 3:50 PM >  *To:* Becky Burr >
> *Cc:* accountability-cross-community at icann.org >  <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>> >  *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT]
> Who is managing the lawyers and what >  have they beenasked to do? > > > >
> Hi Becky, > >  Thanks for asking, item 3 is actually in connection to the
> fact >  that such veto may not be possible without item 1(as I understood >
> it) and that is why I said an indirect veto can happen not that I >  was
> entirely suggesting that those powers be off the table. > >  It seem
> however that folks are only looking at the powers and not >  at what it
> will take to have them. > >  By the way, I also did put in a reservation
> that we may not >  necessarily agree with those views but my concern is
> mainly that >  the ccwg does not spend so much time developing proposals
> that we >  know has certain implementation requirements that are not >
> compatible with the ICANN community structure. I think we should >  learn
> from the the past (based on comments from the last PC) and >  utilize
> legal council and volunteer hours more effectively. > >  FWIW speaking as
> participant. > >  Regards > >  On 6 Jul 2015 8:08 pm, "Burr, Becky" <
> Becky.Burr at neustar.biz >  < mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz
> <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>>> wrote: > >       Seun, > > > >       I am not
> sure why we would take direct budget/strat plan veto >       off the
> table.  Could you explain? Thanks. > > > >       Becky > >       J.
> Beckwith Burr > >       *Neustar, Inc. /* Deputy General Counsel and
> Chief Privacy Officer > >       1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington,
> DC 20006 > >       Office: + 1.202.533.2932 <tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932>
> Mobile: >       +1.202.352.6367 >       <tel:%2B1.202.352.6367>  /
> becky.burr at neustar.biz >       < mailto:becky.burr at neustar.biz
> <becky.burr at neustar.biz>> / www.neustar.biz >       <
> http://www.neustar.biz> > > > >       *From: *Seun Ojedeji <
> seun.ojedeji at gmail.com >       < mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com
> <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>>> >       *Date: *Monday, July 6, 2015 at 11:09
> AM >       *To: *Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org >       <
> mailto:robin at ipjustice.org <robin at ipjustice.org>>> >       *Cc:
> *Accountability Community >       <
> accountability-cross-community at icann.org >       <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>>> >       *Subject: *Re:
> [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and >       what have they
> beenasked to do? > > > >       Hi, > >       I have no problem with
> having a new proposal presented. >       However it is important that
> there some adherence to basic >       principles on proposals that the
> ccwg would not want to >       explore. Three areas comes to mind: > >
> - Its my understanding that anything that will turn some/all >       of
> the SO/AC to members and thereby exposing them to legal >       challenge
> is not acceptable > >       - Its my understanding that anything that
> allows removal of >       individual board member without the approval of
> the entire(or >       larger part) of the community is not acceptable > >
> - Its my understanding that a solution that allows direct >
> community veto on certain elements like budget, strategic plan >       et
> all is not acceptable but an indirect enforcement could be >
> considered (i.e using a power to get another power executed >
> indirectly) > > > >       Some/none of the above may be acceptable by us,
> but my point >       is that there should be some focus going forward,
> especially >       if the target of ICANN54 is to be meet > >
> Regards > > > > > >       On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Robin Gross >
> <robin at ipjustice.org < mailto:robin at ipjustice.org <robin at ipjustice.org>>>
> wrote: > >          I would also like to hear what they propose at this >
>      stage.  I really don't see how it could hurt to have >
> another proposal to consider.  Larry Strickling did say he >
> wanted us to be sure we examined all the options carefully. > > > >
>    Thanks, > >          Robin > > > >          On Jul 6, 2015, at 7:32
> AM, Greg Shatan wrote: > > > >             I agree.  We should have the
> benefit of their thoughts. > > > >             Greg > > > >
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Jordan Carter >             <
> jordan at internetnz.net.nz >             < mailto:jordan at internetnz.net.nz
> <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>>> wrote: > >                Well, I would
> really really like to see what the >                creative thinking
> they have done has suggested. I >                trust our ability as a
> group to make decisions, >                and do not believe we should
> cut off input from >                any direction... > > > >
>    Jordan > > > >                On 7 July 2015 at 01:13, James Gannon >
>            <james at cyberinvasion.net >                <
> mailto:james at cyberinvasion.net <james at cyberinvasion.net>>> wrote: > >
>               Hey Avri, > > > >                   Yes the 3rd model was
> brought up, and the >                   lawyers feel that it might be a
> cleaner way >                   for us to get the powers that we need. > >
>               But without a call from the CCWG to present it >
>         they feel that its not their position to >
> propose a model on their own initiative. > > > >
> Personally i would like to see what they have >                   come up
> with but the CCWG would need to ask as >                   an overall
> group for the chairs to direct them >                   to give some more
> information on the model if >                   we wanted it. > >
>             I think if after we hear from them on Tuesdays >
>       call we still feel we might have some >
> shortcomings that it might be the time to ask >                   them
> about the 3rd option. > > > >                   Also +1 I think they are
> really enjoying the >                   work and are finding themselves
> getting more >                   and more involved as we go on, which is
> great >                   for the CCWG as the more background and >
>             details they know the better that are able to >
>       give us solid well reasoned advice in my opinion. > > > >
>         -James > > > > > >                      On 6 Jul 2015, at 13:19,
> Avri Doria >                      <avri at acm.org <mailto:avri at acm.org
> <avri at acm.org> >> wrote: > > > >                      Hi, > >
>          I have not had a chance to get back to the >
>    recording of the  call.  Not >                      sure I will, that
> time was the time I had >                      for that call and that is
> why >                      i was listening then. > >
> In any case, the lawyers were talking >                      about a new
> model they had come up >                      with, but not knowing what
> to do about it >                      since they had not been asked >
>                  for a new model. > >                      I was told to
> leave before I got to hear >                      the end of that story.
> Or about >                      the model itself.  Anyone who has had a >
>                  chance to listen, whatever happened? > >
>      avri > >                      ps. sometimes i think the lawyers are >
>                  getting interested in what we are >
> doing, almost like stakeholders. not that >                      i expect
> them to give up their >                      hourly rates because they
> are stakeholders. > >                      On 06-Jul-15 05:07, James
> Gannon wrote: > > >                         I listened to the last
> co-chairs >                         lawyers’ call at; >
>         https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602 >
>                     <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_pages_viewpage.action-3FpageId-3D53782602&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=rX8zWSdUbF0XJ6RQyX5HABE7NaQIgAXHj6WfvEXkLh8&s=5REzt6Gk0Mt5evnhe_F8O87Kpc4hX8wql7vP--WYsnQ&e=
> > >                         (I’m a glutton for punishment) > > > >
>                     It was a short call and I’ll make a >
>             particular note that Leon and >
> Mathieu made a point of not making any >
> decisions on behalf of the >                         whole group and made
> it clear anything >                         requiring a decision must be >
>                     made by the overall CCWG, so I was >
>         happy with that side of things >                         myself,
> most of my own fears about not >                         having a
> sub-group are somewhat >                         assuaged. > >
>               So my paraphrasing and overview is: > > > >
>         ·        Lawyers working hard on the >
> models for us collaboratively >                         between the two
> firms since BA > >                         ·        Lawyers are prepping
> a >                         presentation to give to us ASAP >
>             before Paris if possible, that >
> presentation will take the majority of >                         a call,
> it can’t be done quickly, they >                         need about
> 45mins uninterrupted >                         to go through the
> presentation and >                         then would likely need Q&A
> time >                         after they present. > >
>       ·        Some small >
> wording/clarifications to come back to >                         the CCWG >
>                     to make sure everyone’s on the same page > >
>                   ·        Everyone feels Paris will be >
>             an important time for the >                         models,
> lawyers will be ready for a >                         grilling on the
> details of the >                         models from us to flesh out any
> of our >                         concerns/questions > > > >
>             Note that the above is all my very >
> condensed overview of the >                         conversations. > >
>                     It seemed like a productive call to me. > > > >
>                   -James > > > > > >                         *From:*
> accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org >
>       < mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>> >
>       [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org >
>                   <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>>] >
>       *On Behalf >                         Of *Greg Shatan >
>             *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2015 5:33 AM >
>       *To:* Carlos Raul >                         *Cc:* >
>         accountability-cross-community at icann.org >
>       < mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>> >
> *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is >                         managing the
> lawyers and what have >                         they beenasked to do? > > >
> >                         Carlos, > > > >                         As the
> legal sub-team was disbanded, >                         your guess is as
> good as mine..... > > > >                         Greg > > > >
>               On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:27 AM, >
> Carlos Raul <carlosraulg at gmail.com >                         <
> mailto:carlosraulg at gmail.com <carlosraulg at gmail.com>> >
>       < mailto:carlosraulg at gmail.com <carlosraulg at gmail.com>>> wrote: > >
>                     Thank you Greg! > > > >                         It
> makes a lot of sense and I guess >                         those are all
> good reasons as >                         we hired them in the first
> place. >                         What are the next steps now? >
>               What happened in the recent call? > > > >
>       Best regards > > > > >                         Carlos Raúl
> Gutiérrez > >                         +506 8837 7176 >
>       <tel:%2B506%208837%207176> >
> <tel:%2B506%208837%207176> > >                         Skype carlos.raulg >
> >                         _________ > >                         Apartado
> 1571-1000 > >                         *COSTA RICA* > > > > > >
>               On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:02 AM, >
> Greg Shatan >                         <gregshatanipc at gmail.com >
>                   < mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> < mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com
> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>> >                         wrote: > >
>                       Chris, > > > >                             That was
> tried to some extent, >                         at least in the CWG. > > >
> >                             There are several substantial >
>             problems with that approach. > > > >
>     First, lawyers are not >                         fungible.  The
> particular legal skills, >                             background and
> experience >                         required for the issues before both >
>                         WGs are fairly specific, and in >
>         some cases, very specific. >                             The
> primary core competency >                         needed here is
> corporate >                             governance.  While a number of >
>                     lawyers in the community have a >
>           reasonable working knowledge of >                         the
> area, at least in their >                             home jurisdictions,
> I don't >                         believe there are any who would >
>                       say that this is their primary >
>       focus and expertise -- at least >                             none
> who identified themselves >                         to either WG.  The
> second core >                             competency required, especially >
>                     in the CCWG, is non-profit >
>     law. Again there are a number >                         of lawyers
> with a decent working >                             knowledge of this
> fairly broad >                         field, but not as a primary >
>                         focus.  There may be a couple >
>       of lawyers in the community who >                             would
> claim this fairly broad >                         field as a primary
> focus and >                             expertise -- but none who >
>                   became involved with either WG. >
>       This then becomes further >                         narrowed by
> jurisdiction.  Since >                             ICANN is a California >
>                     non-profit corporation, US corporate >
>                 governance and non-profit >
> experience is more relevant than >                             experience
> from other >                         jurisdictions, and California law >
>                         corporate governance and >
>       non-profit experience is more >
> relevant than that from other >                         US
> jurisdictions.  In my >                             experience, the more
> a US >                         lawyer focuses on a particular >
>                   substantive area, the greater >
> their knowledge of and comfort >                             with state
> law issues in US >                         state jurisdictions other than >
>                         their own (e.g., someone who >
>       spend a majority of their time >
> working in corporate governance >                         will have a
> greater knowledge >                             of the law, issues,
> approaches >                         and trends outside their >
>                   primary state of practice, >
> while someone who spends a >                             relatively small
> amount of time >                         in the area will tend to feel >
>                         less comfortable outside their >
>         home jurisdiction).  (An >                             exception
> is that many US >                         lawyers have specific knowledge
> of >                             certain Delaware corporate law >
>                   issues, because Delaware often >
>       serves as the state of >                         incorporation for
> entities operating >                             elsewhere.) > > > >
>                         Second, lawyers in the >
> community will seldom be seen as >                             neutral
> advisors, no matter how >                         hard they try.  They
> will tend >                             to be seen as working from >
>                     their point of view or stakeholder >
>             group or "special interest" or >
> desired outcome, even if they >                             are trying to
> be even-handed. >                         Over the course of time, this >
>                         balancing act would tend to >
>       become more untenable. > > > >                             Third,
> the amount of time it >                         would take to provide
> truly >                             definitive legal advice >
>             (research, careful drafting, >
> discussions with relevant >                         "clients", etc.)
> would be >                             prohibitive, even compared to >
>                     the substantial amount of time >
>           it takes to provide reasonably >
> well-informed and competent >                             legal-based
> viewpoints in the >                         course of either WG's work. > >
> > >                             Fourth, in order to formally >
>               counsel the community, the lawyer >
>     or lawyers in question would >                         have to enter
> into a formal >                             attorney-client relationship. >
>                     Under US law, an >
> attorney-client relationship >                         may inadvertently
> be created by >                             the attorney's actions, so >
>                     attorneys try to be careful about >
>           not providing formal legal >                         advice
> without a formal engagement >                             (sometimes
> providing an >                         explicit "caveat" if they feel
> they >                             might be getting too close to >
>                   providing legal advice).  If the >
>           attorney is employed by a >
> corporation, they would likely be >                             unable to
> take on such a >                         representation due to the terms
> of >                             their employment, and that is >
>                   before getting to an exploration >
>           of conflict of interest >                         issues.  If
> the attorney is employed >                             by a firm, the
> firm would have >                         to sign off on the >
>                   representation, again dealing >
> with potential conflict issues. > > > >
> Fifth, even if the above issues >                         were all
> somehow resolved, it >                             would be highly
> unlikely that >                         any such attorney would provide >
>                         substantial amounts of advice, >
>         written memos, counseling, etc. >                             on
> a pro bono (unpaid) basis, >                         especially given the >
>                         time-consuming nature of the >
>       work.  Pro bono advice and >
> representation is generally >                         accorded to
> individuals and >                             entities that could not >
>                     otherwise be able to pay for it.  That >
>                 is clearly not the case here, >
> at least with ICANN taking >                             financial
> responsibility.  It >                         would likely be very
> difficult >                             to justify this to, e.g., a >
>                     firm's pro bono committee, as a >
>           valid pro bono representation. > > > >
>     Sixth, if ICANN were not taking >                         the role
> they are taking, it >                             would be extremely
> difficult to >                         identify the "client" in this >
>                         situation.  The "community"  is >
>         a collection of sectors, >                             mostly
> represented by various >                         ICANN-created
> structures, which >                             in turn have members of
> widely >                         varying types (individuals, >
>                   corporations, sovereigns, >
> non-profits, IGOs, partnerships, >                             etc.).
> This would also make it >                         extremely difficult to
> enter >                             into a formal counseling >
>               relationship with the "community." > > > >
>             Seventh, this is a sensitive, >
> high-profile, transformative set >                             of actions
> we are involved in, >                         which is subject to an >
>                         extraordinary amount of >
> scrutiny, not least that of the NTIA >                             and
> the US Congress.  That >                         eliminates any
> possibility of >                             providing informal, >
>                   off-the-cuff, reasonably well-informed but >
>                   not quite expert, "non-advice" >
>       advice -- which might happen in >                             a
> more obscure exercise. >                         There's simply too much
> at stake. > > > >                             Finally, I would say that a >
>                     number of attorneys involved in >
>           one or both of the WGs are in >                         fact
> providing a significant >                             amount of legal
> knowledge and >                         experience to the WGs, helping >
>                         to frame issues, whether in >
>       terms of general leadership (e.g., >
> Thomas, Leon, Becky) or more >                         specifically in a >
>                         "lawyer-as-client" capacity -- >
>         working with outside counsel, >
> tackling the more legalistic >                         issues, providing
> as much legal >                             background and knowledge as >
>                     possible without providing the >
>           type of formal legal advice >                         that
> would tend to create an >                             attorney-client
> relationship, >                         etc.  So I do think that many >
>                         lawyers in the community are >
>       giving greatly of themselves in >                             this
> process, even though they >                         cannot and would not
> be able to >                             formally be engaged by the >
>                     community as its "counsel of record." > > > >
>                       In sum, it might be a nice >
>       thought in theory, but it is no way >                             a
> practical possibility. > > > >                             Greg > > > >
>                         On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:08 AM, >
>         CW Lists >                             <
> lists at christopherwilkinson.eu >                         <
> mailto:lists at christopherwilkinson.eu <lists at christopherwilkinson.eu>> >
>                         < mailto:lists at christopherwilkinson.eu
> <lists at christopherwilkinson.eu>>> >                         wrote: > >
>                           Good morning: > > > >
>       I had decided not to enter >                         this debate.
> But I am bound to >                               say that the thought
> had >                         occurred to me at the time, that >
>                         there were more than enough >
>       qualified lawyers in this >                               community
> that they could >                         perfectly well have counselled
> … >                               themselves. > > > >
>             CW > > > >                               On 04 Jul 2015, at
> 08:41, >                         Greg Shatan >
>       <gregshatanipc at gmail.com >                         <
> mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> <
> mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>> >
>                   wrote: > > > >
> Wolfgang, > > > >                                   To your first point, >
>                     the billing rates were clearly >
>                 stated in the law >                         firms'
> engagement letters. > > > >                                   To your
> second point, >                         I'm sure we could all think of >
>                               other projects and >
>       goals where the money could have >
>     been "better spent." >                         You've stated yours.
> But that >                                   is not the proper >
>                   test.  This was and continues to be >
>                 money we need to spend >                         to
> achieve the goals we have >                                   set.  Under
> different >                         circumstances, perhaps it would >
>                               be a different amount >
>       (or maybe none at all).  But it >
> was strongly felt at >                         the outset that the group
> needed >                                   to have independent >
>                   counsel.  Clearly that counsel >
>             needed to have >                         recognized expertise
> in the appropriate >                                   legal areas.  As
> such, >                         I believe we made excellent >
>                       choices and have been >
> very well represented. > > > >                                   As to
> your "better >                         spent" test, I just had to have >
>                               $4000.00 worth of >
> emergency dental work done.  This >
> money definitely could >                         have been "better spent"
> on a >                                   nice vacation, >
>         redecorating our living room or on >
>       donations to my favored >                         charitable
> causes.  But I had >                                   no choice, other
> than >                         to choose which dentist and >
>                       endodontist I went to, >
> and I wasn't going to cut >                                   corners --
> the dental >                         work was a necessity. >
>                       Similarly, the legal >                         work
> we are getting is a >                                   necessity and
> whether >                         we would have preferred to spend >
>                               the money elsewhere is >
>       not merely irrelevant, it is an >
> incorrect and >                         inappropriate proposition.  Many
> of us >                                   are investing vast >
>               quantities of time that could be >
>           "better spent" >                         elsewhere as well, but
> we are willing >                                   (grudgingly sometimes) >
>                     to spend the time it takes to >
>             get it right, because >                         we believe it
> needs to be done. >                                   This is the
> appropriate >                         measure, whether it comes to >
>                               our time or counsels' >
>       time.  If we believe in this >
> project, we have to >                         invest in it, and do what
> it takes >                                   to succeed. > > > >
>                             Of course, this >
> investment has to be managed wisely >
> and cost-effectively, >                         and by and large, I
> believe the >                                   CCWG has done that >
>                     reasonably well -- not perfectly, >
>                 but reasonably well and >                         with
> "course corrections" >                                   along the way
> intended >                         to improve that management. >
>                             It's certainly fair to >
>       ask, as Robin has done, for a >
> better understanding of >                         that management as we
> go >                                   along.  But asserting >
>               that the money could have been >
>           "better spent" >                         elsewhere sets up a
> false test that we >                                   should not use to >
>                     evaluate this important aspect of >
>                 our work.  Instead, we >                         need to
> focus on whether the >                                   money was "well
> spent" >                         on these critical legal >
>                       services. If you have >
> reason to believe it was not, >                                   that
> could be useful to >                         know.  That would at least
> be >                                   the right discussion to >
>                   have. > > > >                                   Greg > >
> > >                                   On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at >
>               1:13 AM, "Kleinwächter, >
>     Wolfgang" >                                   <
> wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de >                         <
> mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de
> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>> >
>             < mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de
> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>>> >
>                 wrote: > >                                     HI, > >
>                                 and please if you >
>       ask outside lawyers, ask for the >
>       price tag in >                         advance. Some of the money
> spend fo >                                     lawyers could have >
>                   been spend better to suppport >
>             and enable Internet >                         user and
> non-commercial groups >                                     in developing >
>                     countries. > > >
> Wolfgang > > > > > >
> -----Ursprüngliche >                         Nachricht----- >
>                           Von: >
> accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org >
>       < mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>> >
>                   <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org>> >
>                   im Auftrag von >                         Robin Gross >
>                                 Gesendet: Fr >
> 03.07.2015 14:57 >                                     An:
> accountability-cross-community at icann.org >                         <
> mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>> >
>         < mailto:accountability-cross-community at icann.org
> <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>> >
>         Community >                                     Betreff: >
>                   [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers >
>                         and what have they >
> beenasked to do? > > >                                     After the
> legal >                         sub-team was disbanded, I haven't >
>                               been able to follow >
>       what communications are >
> happening with CCWG >                         and the independent lawyers
> we >                                     retained. > >
>                   I understand the >                         lawyers are
> currently "working on >                                     the various
> models" >                         and will present something to >
>                               us regarding that >
> work soon.  However, *what >                                     exactly*
> have the >                         lawyers been asked to do and >
>                               *who* asked them? >
>         If there are written >
> instructions, may >                         the group please see them?
> Who >                                     is now taking on >
>             the role of managing the outside >
>             attorneys for this >                         group, including
> providing >                                     instructions and >
>                   certifying legal work? > >
>         Sorry, but I'm >                         really trying to
> understand what is >                                     happening, and >
>                     there doesn't seem to be much >
>               information in the >                         public on this
> (or if there is, >                                     I can't find it). >
>                     Thanks for any information >
>             anyone can provide. > >
> Best, >                                     Robin > >
>                   _______________________________________________ >
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> > > > > > > >                -- > >                Jordan Carter > >
>            Chief Executive >                *InternetNZ* > >
>    04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 >
> <tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649> (mob) >
> jordan at internetnz.net.nz >                <
> mailto:jordan at internetnz.net.nz <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>> >
>    Skype: jordancarter > >                /A better world through a
> better Internet / > > >
> _______________________________________________ >
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> > > > > > >       -- > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >
> >          /Seun Ojedeji, >          Federal University Oye-Ekiti >
>    web:     //http://www.fuoye.edu.ng >          <
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> > >          //Mobile: +2348035233535 <tel:%2B2348035233535>// >
> //alt email:seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng >          <
> mailto:seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng <seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng>>/ > >
>       The key to understanding is humility - my view ! > > > > >
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-- 
Jordan Carter

Chief Executive
*InternetNZ*

04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
jordan at internetnz.net.nz
Skype: jordancarter

*A better world through a better Internet *
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