[CCWG-ACCT] [CCWG-Advisors] question regarding Global Public Interest
william currie
willie.currie at gmail.com
Fri Jan 8 12:15:18 UTC 2016
George
Thank you for reaching out. I want to assure you that any discontent I
have been expressing is out of concern for the IANA transition being
completed with a sound form of accountability in place - in addition to the
other requirements needed for a successful transition.
I've noted your appeal for trust and a trust-based form of accountability
that is congruent with the open multi-stakeholder culture in ICANN. From my
perspective, a viable form of trust-based accountability must rest on there
being some form of sanctions-based accountability in place, however
minimal. Otherwise we are left with a situation of asymmetrical power
relations as between the Board and the Community, which can only breed the
kind of mistrust you have identified in the CCWG-A processes.
Why I objected so strongly to the Board's insertion of the GPI into its
response to the Third Proposal is that it exacerbates this asymmetry, gets
people's backs up at a point when everyone needs to focus on the narrow and
concrete issues still standing in the way of a consensus proposal, rather
than the broad and abstract issues raised in setting up the GPI as a
criterion with which to judge key aspects of the Third Proposal. I believe
that we are so close to reaching consensus on the Accountability Proposal
that extra care needs to be taken to bring everyone along - to a point
where the key elements are acceptable to everyone, without diluting the
need for an implementable system of accountability. Once these basics are
in place, I think you will find it easier to address the issue of
trust-based accountability because it will be clear what will happen when
there is a breakdown of trust between the Board as accountable actor and
the Community as accountability forum.
I'm happy to take this offline and to meet up with you in Marrakech.
Best regards
Willie
On Friday, January 8, 2016, George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','george.sadowsky at gmail.com');>> wrote:
> Willie,
>
> Thank you very much for responding, and for opening a dialogue on a
> subject about which you feel some discontent. I wish that this would
> happen more often, and much faster, so that we can separate the real
> differences of opinion from the misconceptions and negative feelings that
> seem to sprout like weeds.
>
> I can say with certainty that the Board is _not_ calculating its moves in
> order to disrupt the CCWG's attempt to forge consensus. But I accept that
> you feel this way. I assume that your use of the phrase " ... every move
> that the Board makes ... " is exaggeration; that's OK, I exaggerate
> sometimes also.
>
> I agree that the GPI debate had its absurdities. I do not speak for the
> Board, but I suppose that the Board could have said instead, "It is our
> belief that .... " or some such thing. What seemed absurd to me was that
> attention seemed to immediately gravitate toward trying to define the GPI
> rather than looking at the substance that the Board referred to.
>
> With respect to previous incidents that correspond to your feeling, this
> will take a more extended conversation. Rather than subject the list to
> this (unless you really want to) I suggest that we take this off line and
> definitely plan to meet in Marrakech for an in-depth discussion. We seem
> to have different views, and perhaps exploration of each others' sense of
> things will be educational for us both.
>
> Does that make sense to you? Can we meet in Marrakech? Just the two of
> us? With others? Your call.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2016, at 1:52 AM, william currie <willie.currie at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> George
>
> What I find disturbing is that every move the Board makes seems to be
> designed to disrupt the CCWG's attempts to forge consensus on the
> accountability proposal - this absurd GPI debate being the latest example.
>
> When this happens repeatedly in a complex process, one begins to question
> the bona fides of the actor concerned.
>
> Willie
>
> On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 10:48 PM, George Sadowsky <
> george.sadowsky at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, Willie,
>>
>> It is not a joke. The phrase "global public interest" and ICANN's
>> responsibility for acting in a manner consistent with it, are mentioned a
>> number of times in the Affirmation of Commitments, which is to be included
>> in the revised bylaws.
>>
>> I find it really distressing that you think that the Board is joking in
>> its contacts with the CCWG.
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2015, at 12:49 PM, william currie <willie.currie at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is some kind of a joke from the Board, right?
>>
>> No one ever tries to define the public interest. It is what it is.
>>
>> Willie
>>
>> On Sunday, December 27, 2015, Nathalie Coupet via
>> Accountability-Cross-Community <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 Kavouss
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 27, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> * Dear Milton,*
>>> *I fully and wholeheartzedly Agree and support you *
>>> I tries to put together something to show that is is absolutely
>>> difficulté ,if not impossible to have anagreed definition for Global
>>> Public Interest.
>>> From the text appears below you will note the difficulties and
>>> impossibilities.
>>> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND INSISTANCE OF SOME PEOPLE PUSHING TO HAVE A
>>> DEFINITION , in particular, believing that the legal adviser s are miracle
>>> makers
>>> WE MUST ABBANDONE TAKING THAT PATH . This issue should be included in
>>> the agenda of the 05 January call.
>>> Legal Adviser are kindly requested to hold on the action on this issue
>>> until the matter is discussed and agreed upon by CCWG
>>> pLEASE FIND BELOW SOME WORDS IN THIS REGARD INDICATING THE DIFFICULTIES
>>> TO TAKE SUCH APPROACH ( ATTEMPTING TO DEFINE GPI)
>>> See Below
>>>
>>> *Global Public Interest composed of three words ; Global, Public and
>>> Interest, each of which has some meaning and application in an discrete
>>> fashion as follows: *
>>>
>>> *Some available definition of Global *
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> Spherical <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spherical>
>>> : of, relating to, or involving the entire sphere
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Worldwide <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worldwide>
>>> :of, relating to, or involving the entire world :
>>> 2. Universal <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universal>
>>> :of, relating to, or applying to a whole universe:
>>>
>>> *Some available Definition of Public *
>>>
>>> 1. exposed to general view :
>>> 2. of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of
>>> a nation or state ; *public law*
>>> 3. of or relating to a government , of, relating to, or being in
>>> the service of the community or nation
>>> 4. of or relating to people in general
>>> 5. of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to
>>> private affairs
>>> 6. devoted to the general or national welfare
>>> 7. accessible to or shared by all members of the community
>>> 8. capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open
>>> market
>>> 9. supported by public funds and private contributions rather than
>>> by income from commercials (*public radio>* *<public television)*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Examples of public*
>>>
>>> 1. *Public* outrage over the scandal eventually forced him to resign.
>>> 2. The ads are intended to increase *public* awareness of the risks
>>> of smoking.
>>> 3. She was elected to a *public* office.
>>> 4. He was in Congress for many years but he recently retired from
>>> *public* life.
>>> 5. They decided on a nearby restaurant as a convenient *public*
>>> place to meet.
>>> 6. The government has allowed *public* access to the documents.
>>> 7. The city council is holding a *public* meeting.
>>> 8. This will be her first *public* performance in five years.
>>> 9. Her trial will be *public*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Use of term “Public”*
>>>
>>> *As a noun, the whole body politic, or the aggregate of the citizens of
>>> a state, nation, or municipality. The community at large, without reference
>>> to the geographical limits of any corporation like a city, town, or county;
>>> the people.*
>>>
>>> *As an adjective, open to all; notorious. Open to common use. Belonging
>>> to the people at large; relating to or affecting the whole people of a
>>> state, nation, or community; not limited or restricted to any particular
>>> class of the community.*
>>>
>>> *Further use of term “public”*
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> as a noun
>>>
>>> The people of the nation, state, county, district or municipality, which
>>> the government serves.
>>>
>>> 1.
>>>
>>> as an adjective
>>>
>>> Referring to any agency, interest, property, or activity which is under
>>> the authority of the government or which belongs to the people. This
>>> distinguishes public from private interests as with public and private
>>> schools, public and private utilities, public and private hospitals, public
>>> and private lands, and public and private roads.
>>>
>>> *Some available definition of Interest:*
>>>
>>> A feeling of wanting to learn more about something or to be involved in
>>> something
>>>
>>> A quality that attracts your attention and makes you want to learn more
>>> about something or to be involved in something
>>>
>>> Something (such as a hobby) that a person enjoys learning about or doing
>>> Public Interest
>>>
>>> One of the simple definitions of Public interest could be:
>>>
>>> Anything affecting the rights, health, or finances of the public at
>>> large.
>>>
>>> Public interest is a common concern among citizens in the management and
>>> affairs of local, state, andnational government. It does not mean mere
>>> curiosity but is a broad term that refers to the body politic and the
>>> public weal. Apublic utility is regulated in the public interest because
>>> private individuals rely on such a company for vital service
>>>
>>> *Can we define Public Interest in a broader/ general term?*
>>>
>>> From a broad perspective, it is not appropriate to believe that a
>>> detailed general definition would serve a useful purpose: individual
>>> circumstances are too variable and such a definition would inevitably
>>> result in unintended and/or unanticipated or unexpected consequences. It
>>> should be emphasize that when justifying an action as being in the public
>>> interest
>>>
>>> Using such a framework will allow those advocating an action in the
>>> public interest to understand what they mean, and, if explained, will allow
>>> those assessing the action or proposal to determine whether they can
>>> support the measure as being in the public interest.
>>>
>>> Another simple definition of public interest could be :
>>>
>>> Welfare the general public (in contrast to the selfish interest of a
>>> person, group or firm) in which the whole society has a stake and which
>>> warrants recognition, promotion and protection by the government and its
>>> agencies. Despite the vagueness of the term, public interest is claimed
>>> generally by governments in matters state secrecy and confidentiality. It
>>> is approximated by comparing expected gains and potential costs or losses
>>> associated with a decision, policy, program or project
>>>
>>> in acting in public interest,, each circumstance needs to be assessed
>>> based on criteria such as the relevant public, wants, and constraints. The
>>> key to assessing any public interest decision is transparency of the
>>> decision-making process, including balancing competing interests.
>>>
>>> The term has grown working toward a multitude of objectives, including
>>> civil rights, civil liberties, women’s rights, consumer rights,
>>> environmental protection, and so on. Nevertheless, a common denominator for
>>> public interest remains the ethic of “fighting for the little guy”—that is,
>>> representing the underrepresented and vulnerable segments of society.
>>> International law is one of the fastest growing legal fields. The types
>>> of public service work and practice settings vary widely. The U.S.
>>> Government hires attorneys to work on international issues in many of its
>>> agencies, including the Department of State, the Department of Commerce and
>>> the Environmental Protection Agency, to name just a few. Hundreds of
>>> lawyers also work at the United Nations, the World Bank, the Organization
>>> of American States, international tribunals, the International Criminal
>>> Court and other intergovernmental organizations. Finally, there are
>>> thousands of non-governmental organizations throughout the world that focus
>>> on international issues, including but not limited to, development, human
>>> rights, the environment law, energy, trade, arms control, and transitional
>>> justice.
>>> Another definition of Public Interest is :
>>> 1. The welfare or well-being of the general public; commonwealth.
>>> 2. Appeal or relevance to the general populace: a news story of public
>>> interest."[ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_interest#cite_note-1>
>>> Public interest must be assessed impartially and, therefore, the public
>>> interest could be defined as the "*ex ante*
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_ante> welfare of the representative
>>> individual.", by assuming that there is an equal chance for one to be
>>> anyone in society and, thus, could benefit or suffer from a change, the
>>> public interest is by definition enhanced whenever that change is preferred
>>> to the status quo *ex ante*. This approach is "*ex ante*", in the sense
>>> that the change is not evaluated after the fact but assessed before the
>>> fact without knowing whether one would actually benefit or suffer from it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now to have a general understanding of Global Public Interest ,one needs
>>> to put a combination of the above simplified terms and definition
>>> We then immediately find that it is " Mission Impobile"
>>> Kavouss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-12-26 9:40 GMT+01:00 Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> I also fully agree with Milton.
>>>> If we remember, at the beginning of our work we attempted to find a
>>>> possible description , and not definition as there would be no
>>>> Universally agreed definition for GPI, we concluded that we better not to
>>>> follow that path.
>>>> It is waste of time to re-start such useless work again thus question
>>>> to lawyer MUST BE WITHDRAWN. If , and only if , the Lawyers find some thing
>>>> , that does not mean that we have to accept that just because it comes from
>>>> lawyers.
>>>> The GPI is one of the most complex and multidimensional as well as
>>>> cross cutting cultural issue that will take us no where.
>>>> The board MUST provide the basis under which it reject a given Rec. or
>>>> part if the Rec. since we the CCWG do not hsve and certainly will not have
>>>> an agreed definition for GPI.
>>>> The CCWG must clearly mentions to ICANN Board that have serious
>>>> concerns to accept rejection of any Rec. or part of a Rec. on the ground
>>>> of being in contradiction of GPI for which there is no definition.
>>>> We SHALL NOT waste it time to define that nor accept any rejection by
>>>> the Board on the ground of non- existence definition.
>>>> We should all stop any imposition of any action from any source
>>>> Kavouss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On 26 Dec 2015, at 07:52, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Milton (and Alan).
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, December 25, 2015, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find myself agreeing completely with Milton.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.
>>>>>
>>>>> On December 25, 2015 8:46:35 PM EST, "Mueller, Milton L" <
>>>>> milton at gatech.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MM: Thomas and all:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I appreciate your pushback on the board’s comments, but I think it is
>>>>>> not helpful for the discussion to center on “definition of the global
>>>>>> public interest.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no definition, and even if we come up with some mutually
>>>>>> acceptable verbal construction of what is in “the global public interest”
>>>>>> there never will be easy agreement on how that definition is applied to
>>>>>> any particular issue we have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, we may all agree that it is in the GPI for ICANN to be
>>>>>> transparent, but still might disagree on finding the appropriate trade off
>>>>>> between inspection rights and administrative burdens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let’s just accept the fact that the board has an interest in
>>>>>> protecting the corporation and will argue from that perspective, and the
>>>>>> rest of us have an interest in making the board accountable to the
>>>>>> community and will assess issues from that perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When (or if – because it has not formally done so yet) the board
>>>>>> votes that a particular recommendation is not in the GPI, let’s just
>>>>>> interpret that as meaning the board doesn’t like it and won’t voluntarily
>>>>>> go along with it. Then we have to decide whether to ignore that challenge
>>>>>> and press ahead, or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing in gained in that interaction by coming up with a verbal
>>>>>> definition of GPI. But a lot of time could be wasted in the attempt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --MM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have asked the Board to provide information on what definition of
>>>>>> the Global Public Interest it has used and what the rationale for their
>>>>>> current assessment of our recommendations is. The answer to that question
>>>>>> is still pending.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, we are reaching out to you now as we want to understand
>>>>>> better the impact of Global Public Interest as we continue to work on our
>>>>>> final recommendations. Our plan is to offer explanations in our final
>>>>>> report where we speak to the Global Public Interest and why we are of the
>>>>>> opinion that our recommendations in their final form are in the Global
>>>>>> Public Interest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We would therefore appreciate your input at your earliest convenience
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. suggested definition(s) of the Global Public Interest that
>>>>>> our group could use;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. which of the recommendations in our 3rd report, if any, give raise
>>>>>> Global Public Interest concerns according to your assessment; and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. how you suggest we can resolve the Global Public Interest issues,
>>>>>> which are identified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you very much, kind regards and a great holiday season,
>>>>>> Mathieu Weill, Léon Sanchez, Thomas Rickert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thomas Rickert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Rechtsanwalt*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tel: +49.228.74 898.0
>>>>>> fax: +49.228.74 898.66
>>>>>> email: thomas at rickert.net
>>>>>> web: rickert.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender. image]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RICKERT Rechtsanwaltsgesellschaft m.b.H. (i.e. law firm)
>>>>>> Kaiserplatz 7 - 9, 53113 Bonn, Germany
>>>>>> HRB 9262, AG Bonn - GF/CEO: Thomas Rickert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCWG-Advisors mailing list
>>>>>> CCWG-Advisors at icann.org
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-advisors
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
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>
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