<div dir="ltr">I agree that there is a danger of going down a rabbit hole here. Debating what "international law" or "the principles of international law" means will get us nowhere.<div><br></div><div>Article 4 of ICANN's Articles of Incorporation (which I quoted above) is somewhat more relevant.</div><div><br></div><div>But the real work here is in defining concrete elements of accountability and areas of improvement.</div><div><br></div><div>I suggest that we all followed the scent of the wrong question here when Carl Schonander posted "<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px">Respect for international and national law is essential.” Instead of asking what do you mean (or, if you are from New York, like me, "Whaddaya mean") by international law, questions like the following might have brought us to more fruitful discussions:</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px">What are you trying to protect against?</span></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px">Is this a reaction to a past failure of accountability by ICANN, and what exactly was it?</span></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px">What do you hope to accomplish by putting this in?</span></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px">Accountability mechanisms are tools that need to be "fit for purpose". If you are afraid of fire, you get smoke detectors and fire extinguishers and use flame retardant materials, etc. Proposing a random tool, without identifying the specific threat (and I don't consider "failing to respect the law" to be specific), will not get us very far.</span></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px">Greg Shatan</span></font></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">Gregory S. Shatan </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(192,80,77)">Abelman Frayne & Schwab</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">666 Third Avenue </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> New York, NY 10017-5621</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Direct</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12128859253" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-885-9253</a> <b>| </b></span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Main</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499022" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9022</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Fax</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499190" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9190</a> <b>|</b> </span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Cell </span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+19178166428" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">917-816-6428</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="mailto:gsshatan@lawabel.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">gsshatan@lawabel.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><font>ICANN-related: <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> </font></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="http://www.lawabel.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">www.lawabel.com</a></span></i></b></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Kavouss Arasteh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear All,</div><div>Any treaty unless is ratified by the parties adhered to it is not binding.</div><div>Moreover, International Customary Law is merely applicable between states and not priovaite coopration ,Moreover, it is not legally binding . However, like many other similar cases it is only morally binding.</div><div>Consequently that would not be applicable notr to be referred to by CCWG.</div><div>i SUGGEST WE DO NOT GET INTO THAT DELEMA ,otherwise we never get out of it due to the fact that there are divergence view even between professionals on lega affairs</div><div>Regards</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div>Kavouss </div></font></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">2014-12-16 21:43 GMT+01:00 Greg Shatan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></span>:</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr">I don't think that "international law" as referred to in this discussion was intended to mean "<span style="font-size:13px">law binding states in regards to bilateral and multilateral relationships between themselves (states), emanating from bilateral and multilateral agreements between themselves (states),</span>" Rather, I expect that what was meant was "principles of international law," as referred to in ICANN's Articles of Incorporation, Article 4, (emphasis added):<div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:22.39px;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">4. The Corporation shall operate for the benefit of the Internet community as a whole, carrying out its activities in conformity with relevant <b>principles of international law </b>and applicable international conventions and local law and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with these Articles and its Bylaws, through open and transparent processes that enable competition and open entry in Internet-related markets. To this effect, the Corporation shall cooperate as appropriate with relevant international organizations.</span><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:22.39px;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br></span></div><div><span style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Article 38(1) of the Statute of the International Court of Justice refers to</span><span style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px"> “the general principles of law recognized by civilized nations,” which can be described as follows:</span></div><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px">The basic notion is that a general principle of international law is some proposition of law so fundamental that it will be found in virtually every legal system. When treaties and customary international law fail to offer a needed international rule, a search may be launched in comparative law to discover if national legal systems use a common legal principle. If such a common legal principle is found, then it is presumed that a comparable principle should be attributed to fill the gap in international law. (</span></font><span style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px">Ja</span><span style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px">nis, </span><i style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px">An Introduction to International Law)<br><br></i></blockquote><span style="text-align:justify">There is a useful discussion of the interpretation of the term "principles of international law" in the Declaration of the Independent Review Panel in </span><u style="text-align:justify">ICM v. ICANN</u><span style="text-align:justify">, which summarizes the arguments of both parties' international law experts before the panel comes to its own conclusion:</span><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;padding:0px;border:currentColor"><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><span style="text-align:justify"><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>138. In the view of ICM Registry, principles of international law are</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>applicable; that straightforwardly follows from their specification in the</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>foregoing phrase of Article 4 of the Articles, and from the reasons given in</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>introducing that specification. (Supra, paragraphs 53-54.) Principles of</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>international law in ICM’s analysis include the general principles of law</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>recognized as a source of international law in Article 38 of the Statute of the</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>International Court of Justice. Those principles are not confined, as ICANN</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>argues, to the few principles that may be relevant to the interests of Internet</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>stakeholders, such as principles relating to trademark law and freedom of</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>expression. Rather they include international legal principles of general</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>applicability, such as the fundamental principle of good faith and allied</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>principles such as estoppel and abuse of right. ICM’s expert, Professor</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>Goldsmith, observes that there is ample precedent in international contracts</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>and in the holdings of international tribunals for the proposition that nonsovereigns</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>may choose to apply principles of international law to the</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>determination of their rights and to the disposition of their disputes.<br></i></span></font><i style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px"><br><br>139. ICANN and its expert, Professor David Caron, maintain that</i><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i><br></i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>international law essentially governs relations among sovereign States; and</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>that to the extent that such principles are “relevant” in this case, it is those</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>few principles that are applicable to a private non-profit corporation that</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>bear on the activities of ICANN described in Article 3 of its Articles of</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>Incorporation (supra, paragraph 2). General principles of law, such as that of</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>good faith, are not imported by Article 4 of ICANN’s Articles of Incorporation;</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>still less are principles derived from treaties that protect legitimate</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>expectations. Nor is Article 4 of the Articles a choice-of-law provision; in</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>fact, no governing law has been specified by the disputing parties in this</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>case. If ICANN, by reason of its functions, is to be treated as analogous to</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>public international organizations established by treaty (which it clearly is</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>not), then a relevant principle to be extracted and applied from the</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>jurisprudence of their administrative tribunals is that of deference to the</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>discretionary authority of executive organs and of bodies whose decisions</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>are subject to review.<br><br></i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>140. In the view of the Panel, ICANN, in carrying out its activities “in</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>conformity with the relevant principles of international law,” is charged with</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>acting consistently with relevant principles of international law, including</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>the general principles of law recognized as a source of international law. 64</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>That follows from the terms of Article 4 of its Articles of Incorporation and</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>from the intentions that animated their inclusion in the Articles, an intention</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>that the Panel understands to have been to subject ICANN to relevant</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>international legal principles because of its governance of an intrinsically</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>international resource of immense importance to global communications and</i></span></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><i>economies. Those intentions might not be realized were Article 4<br></i></span></font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:italic"><br>interpreted to exclude the applicability of general principles of law.</span></blockquote></span></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;padding:0px;border:currentColor"><blockquote><span style="text-align:justify"><blockquote><font color="#000000"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="font-style:italic"><br></font></span></font></blockquote></span></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote></blockquote><span style="text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px">While not dispositive, the Declaration can hardly be dismissed as inconsequential. It is clearly from even a brief review of the document that it is the result of many of hours of careful research, analysis and argument by knowledgeable professionals on both sides of the case, as well as a careful review by the panel (which included a former presiding judge of the ICJ, a distinguished scholar of international arbitration and a former US District Court judge). Given that these contributors trod the very ground upon which we now walk, the Declaration is, at the least, instructive.</span><div><div style="text-align:justify"><font color="#000000" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><br></span></font></div><div style="text-align:justify"><font color="#000000" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px">Greg Shatan</span></font></div><blockquote><span style="text-align:justify"><blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#000000"><span style="font-size:12px"><br><br></span></font></blockquote></span></blockquote></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:el@lisse.na" target="_blank">el@lisse.na</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="auto"><div>Becky,</div><div><br></div><div>as if that was of any consequence.</div><span><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>el<br><br>Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini</div></span><span><div><br>On Dec 16, 2014, at 20:50, Burr, Becky <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz" target="_blank">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt">Also, fwiw, the panel in ICM v. ICANN held that ICANN is subject to international law.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-size:9pt">J. Beckwith Burr</span></p></div></div></blockquote></span>[...]</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>
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