<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/7/15 11:08 AM, Steve DelBianco
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AB853A0F-B9FB-49E3-8A4F-EE9946D48E8C@netchoice.org"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div>
<div>Some clarifications about the Member concept, as described
on the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=51416471">
Work Area 2 inventory</a>:</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Steve,<br>
<br>
Thank you for reference to the WS2 collection -- as I've not
followed WS2 I've no idea which of the items referencing "members"
is final and ready for reference to the entire WG for
consideration. In any case ...<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AB853A0F-B9FB-49E3-8A4F-EE9946D48E8C@netchoice.org"
type="cite">
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none; padding:0px;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Members are not outside of ICANN — they are designated by
their respective AC/SO/Constituencies. So not sure there is
much risk that a majority of these Members could be
captured.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm glad you recognize that, assuming several possible models for
"membership", some will, from time to time, be captured by the
parties with substantial material interest in the corporation's
momentary and long-term policies and governance, though perhaps not
a majority. Personally I would not fixate on "majority", as policy
decision making has been, and may continue to be, by groups of
interests, for which much less than "majority capture" may be
sufficient to determine outcomes.<br>
<br>
<br>
In what follows (below) shouldn't these "member" references be
"proposed members", with a reference to a specific membership
proposal somewhere in the WS2 work product? I'd like to know what
"member" means, and I expect that what is needed for each notion of
"member" is the proposed Bylaws language for that proposed notion of
"member" and the rights and duties associated.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Eric Brunner-Williams<br>
Eugene, Oregon<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AB853A0F-B9FB-49E3-8A4F-EE9946D48E8C@netchoice.org"
type="cite">
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none; padding:0px;">
<div>
</div>
<div>Members would be given only these enumerated powers:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none;
padding:0px;">
<div>Appoint members of Affirmation Review teams</div>
<div>Review [and perhaps reverse] any board decision.
Non-approval would send decision back to bottom-up policy
development process.</div>
<div>Approve proposed changes to ICANN Bylaws or Articles of
Incorporation.</div>
<div>Approve annual proposed budget </div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Members could <u>not</u> re-write contracts or budgets
or bylaws. If a bottom-up consensus process generated a
bylaws change that was rejected by the board, the Members
could reverse that decision, however.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div id="">
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none;
padding:0px;"><br>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>Steve DelBianco</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:12pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Greg Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday,
January 7, 2015 at 12:45 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[CCWG-Accountability] Regarding Non-profit and public-benefit
legal structure<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I would not rush to the conclusion that a
membership group is per se prone to capture. A poorly
designed membership group, yes. The devil is in the
details -- who are the members? if they are individuals,
who do they represent? how do they act? when can they act,
and how quickly? how many of them are there? what are
their powers? who is excluded? are there classes of
members? is voting weighted?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, I'm not sure if (or why) the community
accountability mechanism needs to be "outside"
(depending on what that means). Members in a membership
corporation are not really outside, unless I am not
getting the sense of the word as used here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for the dispute resolution mechanism, that will
depend on the other two factors (among other things).
If the members have the "last word" on something, and
the board fails to act, binding arbitration (or
litigation) would be a reasonable step (although some
escalation mechanisms might be appropriate before
getting there).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greg Shatan<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:37 AM,
Paul Rosenzweig <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"
lang="EN-US">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I think that the potential for
capture of the outside member group is the
reason that the accountability system probably
needs to be linked to an independent
judicial/arbitral function to resolve
disputes. [Of course that institution, too,
could be captured … but at some point we have to
end the “who guards the guardians?” question].
And that, in turn emphasizes why it is necessary
as part of the transition to define the
Board’s/ICANN’s scope of authority. A
judicial/arbitral function can only resolve
disputes and cabin capture/abuse if it has an
articulated standard against which to measure
the dispute. In the absence of such
pre-existing guidance the judiciary/arbiter is
simply substituting his/her/its own judgment for
the Board and the Community, which is not a good
thing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Hence the bottom line: We need a) an
outside accountability mechanism representing
the community; b) an independent dispute
resolution mechanism; and c) clearly articulated
standards against which to measure and resolve
any dispute</span><span style="color: rgb(31,
73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Paul</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">
Mathieu Weill [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr"
target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 7, 2015 9:04
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"
target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-Accountability]
Regarding Non-profit and public-benefit
legal structure</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for this very valuable discussion.
<br>
<br>
While it confirms that our initial orientation
towards the ability to, somehow, oversee the
Board, is relevant and worth exploring, the
latest comments (regarding risk of capture)
highlight that we should also anticipate on
the accountability of the overseeing mechanism
itself. <br>
<br>
If "the community" (through a mechanism yet to
be determined) oversees Board and staff, can
we ensure all stakeholders, especially those
who are less familiar with Icann, that "the
community", in turn, is accountable (ie has
the relevant independent checks and balances,
review and redress mechanisms) ? A significant
challenge, but I'm confident our group can
address that.
<br>
<br>
This aspect might, however, need to be
addressed in our definition of WS1, if there
is agreement that is a necessary element for
the transition to take place.
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Mathieu<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 07/01/2015 09:07, Dr Eberhard W Lisse a
écrit :<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not interested
much in the details, interesting as they
are :-)-O, but would like to pick up on
Bruce's last paragraph, because in my
view, the "membership supervision" is not
going to help much as it is prone to
capture, quite the opposite of the
accountability we want.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">greetings, el</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jan 7, 2015, at 02:40, Greg Shatan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What Bruce has set
forth is close to correct. However, I
can't help but do a little legal
nit-picking.
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Public benefit
corporation" is a term used in
California (among other places) as a
term for non-profit corporations
generally. (In New York State, we
use the term "not-for-profit
corporation" to mean basically the
same thing as a California "public
benefit corporation" (and we use the
term "public benefit corporation" to
mean something quite different -- a
quasi-public corporation like the
Metropolitan Transport Authority).)
California public benefit
corporations are not really
"chartered by the state" (though New
York ones like the MTA are chartered
by the state). [Wikipedia isn't
always a great source....]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In California,
public benefit corporations may be
created with or without members, or
may convert from member to
non-member and vice versa. However,
a public benefit corporation with
members is still a public benefit
corporation. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(California also
has "mutual benefit corporations"
which are non-profit but never
charitable (and are also not
tax-exempt). Mutual benefit
corporations are run for the benefit
of their members, and not for the
benefit of the general public.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The term "member"
can also be used to mean people (or
organizations) who aren't really
members. For instance, when you
become a "member" of a museum, you
are not becoming a member of the
corporation (i.e., what some in
ICANN-land have termed a "statutory
member"). These non-statutory
"memberships" are more for marketing
purposes and have no governance
role. "Statutory members" on the
other hand, have a role in
governance (which can vary markedly
depending on the by-laws of the
particular corporation.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greg Shatan</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(Speaking for
myself, and not giving legal advice
as I am not a member of the
California Bar)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 6,
2015 at 6:54 PM, Bruce Tonkin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au"
target="_blank">Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Phil,<br>
<br>
<br>
>> I would envisage the
Board having to be compliance with
all Corporate Governance Codes
specific to Companies Law in the
country of incorporation, subject
to a community consensus override.
But what is its corporate status -
not for profit or for profit - as
different codes would apply ?<br>
<br>
The legal status of ICANN is as
specified in its articles of
incorporation:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/articles-2012-02-25-en"
target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/articles-2012-02-25-en</a><br>
<br>
"This Corporation is a non-profit
public benefit corporation and is
not organized for the private gain
of any person. It is organized
under the California Non-profit
Public Benefit Corporation Law for
charitable and public purposes.
The Corporation is organized, and
will be operated, exclusively for
charitable, educational, and
scientific purposes within the
meaning of § 501 (c)(3) of the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as
amended (the "Code"), or the
corresponding provision of any
future United States tax code. Any
reference in these Articles to the
Code shall include the
corresponding provisions of any
further United States tax code."<br>
<br>
Also from:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-benefit_nonprofit_corporation"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-benefit_nonprofit_corporation</a><br>
<br>
"A public-benefit non-profit
corporation is a type of
non-profit corporation chartered
by a state government, and
organized primarily or exclusively
for social, educational,
recreational or charitable
purposes by like-minded citizens.
Public-benefit nonprofit
corporations are distinct in the
law from mutual-benefit nonprofit
corporations in that they are
organized for the general public
benefit, rather than for the
interest of its members."<br>
<br>
I believe it was deliberately set
up as public benefit rather than a
member organization - to avoid the
situation where the members become
limited to say gTLD registries and
registrars and hence it ends up
operating primarily for the
benefit of the domain name
registration industry.<br>
<br>
Any move away from a
public-benefit corporation to a
membership corporation - would
need to carefully consider how to
ensure that the members are
reflective of the broader Internet
community and don't become limited
to a few members as interest in
"ICANN" drops over time. I.e. a
failure scenario of membership
organisation is what happens to
the membership base over time and
how it can be protected from
capture. I have seen some
membership based ccTLDs get into
problems when their membership
becomes dominated by domain name
investors for example.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Bruce Tonkin<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community
mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org"
target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing
list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org"
target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>*****************************</pre>
<pre>Mathieu WEILL</pre>
<pre>AFNIC - directeur général</pre>
<pre>Tél: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B33%201%2039%2030%2083%2006" value="+33139308306" target="_blank">+33 1 39 30 83 06</a></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr" target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a></pre>
<pre>Twitter : @mathieuweill</pre>
<pre>*****************************</pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>