<div dir="ltr"><div>Just brainstorming: one possibility may be to create "mirror" or "alter ego" organizations (perhaps corporations, perhaps some other form of organized entity), roughly along the lines of the NRO/ASO relationship (the ASO is an ICANN internal structure, while the NRO is not, yet they are essentially "alter egos"). Thus, each SO and AC could create an entity independent of ICANN, but answerable to that SO and AC. The external entities could then be members of ICANN. There are certainly difficulties with this idea (in particular, the GAC may be an issue, and the non-ccNSO ccTLDs may also be an issue), but it's an idea. These organizations would not be owned by the their "alter egos" (in the US, for instance, non-profit organizations generally cannot owned by any third party), so that may alleviate some concerns.<br><br></div><div>Greg Shatan<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Avri Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#330033">
Hi,<br>
<br>
Yes there are difficulties in a component becoming a controlling
entity. But I think there were those who thought it was possible.
So probably worth checking out by those working on the model. I
understand the right lawyer can build almost anything.<br>
<br>
What examples of working models (existing wheels of the right type)
for ICANN membership would you point to as worth exploring?<br>
<br>
It was a good meeting. Happy I could be there.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
avri</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 21-Jan-15 04:20, Dr Eberhard W Lisse
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>How can any internal structure of a company become "member"
of said company?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And, as far as the Country Codes are concerned it can not
work, as not all are members, and some might leave, depending on
policy development.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are similar organizations that have solved that
problem, so I would look at those, before reinventing the wheel.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>el<br>
<br>
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini</div>
<div><br>
On Jan 21, 2015, at 10:51, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Hi,<br>
<br>
Denic has a reasonable basis for membership. <br>
<br>
I cannot understand what reasonable form that membership would
take for ICANN. And as Robin's notes shows, it may not be
necessary to achieve our goals.<br>
<br>
We talked about SOAC [or their chairs], for example, are they
all equal in represenation and voting weight, or do we need to
negotiate some other form of balance? And what if new SOAC
were to be created by the Board? What about the GAC, can a
government entitiy join a California membership corporation?
And if not based on SOAC, then what. Would it cost to join,
and would that appropriate? If it did cost would that leave
civil sociey behind? If it thee was not some sort of control
would one sector or region predominate? Would we need to
force a balance. Could governments join? How would someone
maintain membership - is it permanent or does it take a
renewal process. <br>
<br>
And those are just the first questions. Membership sounds
like an easy solution but the complexities are mind boggling.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<div>On 21-Jan-15 08:40, Dr Eberhard
WLisse wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Just for the record Nominet barely avoided capture, and
by borderline means...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>DENIC has some form of membership (industry).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>el<br>
<br>
-- <span></span>
<div><span>Sent from </span><span>Dr
Lisse's iPhone 5s</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jan 20, 2015, at 23:27, James M. Bladel <<a href="mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com" target="_blank">jbladel@godaddy.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Team:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd like to associate myself with Greg’s comments
(below). We cannot rule out proposed structures due
to their novelty, and anticipated weaknesses are
simply indicators that we need to continue working to
improve/flesh out the idea(s).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In fact, I don’t believe is all that unknown in our
industry. Two large ccTLDs (UK and CA) have some
recognized form of membership that participates in
governance and policy development in the TLD. And I
am of the opinion that a well-designed membership
structure could be an excellent safeguard <span>against</span> capture
of ICANN by a majority of the Board, or a single
SO/AC.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks to all for a productive meeting in
Frankfurt, look forward to future discussions, and see
you in Singapore.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks—</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>J.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div> <span>From: </span>Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span>Date: </span>Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at
20:38 <br>
<span>To: </span>Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span>Cc: </span>Accountability Cross Community
<<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
<span>Subject: </span>Re: [CCWG-ACCT]
[CCWG-Accountability] Membership thoughts<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Siva,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What's your solution? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And how do you think we will be able to
avoid unknown territory? I think we're going
into some kind of unknown territory no matter
what, since "known territory" is
unsatisfactory (or else we wouldn't be here).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And why do you assume that potential
participants will be shut out? Any system,
poorly designed, will have problems. So let's
try to design this well, so it doesn't shut
out potential participants. Any grouping of
people or entities is in some ways "prone to
be captured." But rather than shoot down the
membership concept in a knee-jerk fashion, try
to work toward resolution, or at least try to
create some useful "stress tests." I'm not
saying that a membership organization is the
right solution, the only solution, or even an
available solution. Fighting through the
issues won't be quick or pretty, and it may be
the end-result doesn't work. But it's too
soon to know.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only way to avoid everything in your
email is to stay in bed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greg Shatan</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at
2:08 PM, Sivasubramanian M <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"> I am equally
concerned. The idea of moving to a
membership based system takes us into an
unknown territory. A membership based
system shuts out a section of potential
participants due to their inability to
meet the requirement (money or other)
for membership, the system is prone to
be captured, and there would be
imbalances and unknown dangers.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"> <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">
Sivasubramanain M</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><span><br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian
M</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan
21, 2015 at 12:08 AM, Olivier MJ
Crepin-Leblond <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Dear Jordan,<br>
<br>
thanks for your looking into this
in further detail.<br>
My comment below:<br>
<span><br>
On 19/01/2015 16:00, Jordan
Carter wrote:<br>
><br>
> It would be straightforward
and possible to make e.g. SO and
AC chairs<br>
> effective "members" of
ICANN (we define our own
membership system). It<br>
> would be harder to allow
individuals with some standing
to join<br>
> stakeholder constituencies
of voters and then allocate
shares of total<br>
> votes across these in a
fair way. It would be possible
but mad to have<br>
> a "one member one vote"
system where a ccTLD manager had
the same say<br>
> as an Internet user.<br>
<br>
</span>Isn't what you're
describing ICANN version 1, with
thousands of<br>
individual voters? I agree that
did not work and will not work
today<br>
either. However, I would also
really urge caution in turning
ICANN into<br>
a purely membership organisation
that allocates shares of total
votes<br>
according to size of
organisational members. I have
seen membership<br>
organisations being captured by
large players buying out smaller
players<br>
- the endgame being $$$
controlling the organisation and
*not* the<br>
public interest.<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<span><br>
--<br>
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD<br>
<a href="http://www.gih.com/ocl.html" target="_blank">http://www.gih.com/ocl.html</a><br>
</span>
<div>
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