<div dir="ltr"><div>Eric,<br><br></div><div>Thank you for your email, and your further background on the issue that Eberhard referred to. My inquiry to him was merely intended to understand his reasoning and the background that informed it. It's unfortunate that this thread veered off in another direction. Thank you for bringing us back on track.<br><br></div><div>Greg Shatan<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Eric Brunner-Williams <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net" target="_blank">ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>At the point in time when rfc1591
documented the use of iso3166 code points (allocated by the
iso3166/MA, then the DIN in Munich) as the mechanism that allowed
Jon to "farm out work" to "friends of Jon" (shorthand for trusted,
competent persons, most of whom did not share offices at ISI's
offices on Admiralty Way). I had urged Jon to consider regions
rather than "country codes" as the scaling mechanism, as this
would have allowed non-states to obtain regional sub-delegations,
and prevented pre-mature allocations, some of which were captured,
and many of which were poorly operated, and all identified without
analysis with the sovereignty interests of most parties assigned
iso3166-1 code points.<br>
<br>
Which is to say I know that Eberhard is making reference to a real
issue -- whether a regional aggregation of the present ccTLD
manager interests is equivalent, for the purposes of nominal
"membership" and the capacities of "members", with the
disaggregated interests of the present ccTLD managers. <br>
<br>
At the point in time where Jon and I discussed X.121 vs iso3166-1
I thought the regional aggregation the better choice. At the point
in time where we are now, at least half of the registries
associated with iso3166-1 code points are competently operated,
and the incompetence case for regions now moot. Of course, the
absence of a means of access to delegations from the IANA root
zone for minority peoples, first nations, and occupied territories
(with the clever exception of the promotion of "ps" as a
statistical identifier), and aggregations (again, with the clever
exception of "eu" as a currency identifier), are not yet mooted.<br>
<br>
The subject deserves thoughtful discussion, and the responses to
Eberhard's initial note and followup (quoted below), are not that.<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>In any case and notwithstanding that my position on the
regional organization(s) has been well documented for well
over 8 years, as not all ccTLD Managers are members of a RO,
even a legitimate RO can only represent represent its
members. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is consistent with my repeatedly stated position that
AC/SOs can not be come "members" as they do not represent all
TLDs. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even to the the most cursory observer it should be obvious
that adding unaccountable "members" will not increase
Accountability.</div>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Let's not be uncivil, or add to the list traffic without
substance.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Eric Brunner-Williams<br>
Eugene, Oregon</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/23/15 10:27 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Yes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am fundamentally opposed to the Regional Organizations of
the ccNSO having anything to do with or say in this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have no objections against all (cc)TLD Managers becoming
"members".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>el<br>
<br>
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini</div>
<div><br>
On Jan 24, 2015, at 07:56, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Could you explain your reasoning so that we can better
understand your position? Thank you.<br>
<br>
</div>
Greg Shatan<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"><font>Gregory
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><font>ICANN-related:
<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> </font></b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="http://www.lawabel.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">www.lawabel.com</a></span></i></b></p>
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</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:36 AM,
Dr Eberhard W Lisse <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:el@lisse.na" target="_blank">el@lisse.na</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Just
to state this early, over my dead boy will the Regional
Organizations of the ccNSO have anything to do or say in
this.<br>
<br>
I would not mind every (cc)TLD Manager.<br>
<br>
el<br>
<br>
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini<br>
<div>
<div><br>
> On Jan 24, 2015, at 01:32, Bruce Tonkin <<a href="mailto:Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au" target="_blank">Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello Greg,<br>
><br>
><br>
>>> Just brainstorming: one possibility may
be to create "mirror" or "alter ego" organizations
(perhaps corporations, perhaps some other form of
organized entity), roughly along the lines of the
NRO/ASO relationship (the ASO is an ICANN internal
structure, while the NRO is not, yet they are
essentially "alter egos"). Thus, each SO and AC
could create an entity independent of ICANN, but
answerable to that SO and AC. The external entities
could then be members of ICANN.<br>
><br>
> My understanding also is that to be "members"
the organizations would need to be legal entities.
In a few of the examples given in this thread, the
"coordinating" organizations are not yet established
as legal entities.<br>
><br>
> For example, the Number Resource Organization (
<a href="https://www.nro.net/" target="_blank">https://www.nro.net/</a>)
is a coordinating body for the 5 Regional Internet
Registries (RIRs). These five RIRs are legal
entities - so it may make more sense for them to be
the "members" of ICANN.<br>
><br>
> My understanding is that groups like the
Registrar constituency, and the registrar
stakeholder group (<a href="http://www.icannregistrars.org/" target="_blank">http://www.icannregistrars.org/</a>
) are deliberately not established as legal
entities, or as trade associations. They are
coordinating groups - but any legal agreements etc
are always between individual registrars as legal
entities and ICANN. Recently a domain name
industry association was established - I assume this
is a legal entity (<a href="http://www.thedna.org/" target="_blank">http://www.thedna.org/</a>
).<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Bruce Tonkin<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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