<div dir="ltr">Phil,<div><br></div><div>I don't think we have time for an RFP process, nor do I think one is necessary. In my experience, only a small percentage of legal engagements come via an RFP process. The process is already underway. We have been putting together criteria for the right lawyer/firm, and coordinating between the CWG and the CCWG. We have also been making inquiries and doing research to identify "best of breed" firms in the substantive areas we require. </div><div><br></div><div>Given that many of the accountability remedies and stress tests pose issues under California law, getting far away from California would be ill-advised, since we need expertise in California law. If there are conflicts, they will be identified in the process. If there are no conflicts, I don't think that being located in the State of California will create any issues for independence (ICANN is not a behemoth, like, e.g., General Motors in Detroit in the 1950's). Likely, any firm we choose will have offices in California and a number of other places (inside and outside the U.S.).</div><div><br></div><div>Please note I'm speaking for myself and not for others involved in the lawyer-finding process (though I believe they will likely agree with me).</div><div><br></div><div>Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Phil Buckingham <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:phil@dotadvice.co.uk" target="_blank">phil@dotadvice.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks Greg for the clarity of explanation to a UK based non lawyer.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Absolutely, I agree. It should be up to the WG to select the appropriate law firm with the CCWG- Accountability as its client with ICANN picking up the tab.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When and how does the WG put together the criteria for a RFP ? I would thought the “said law firm counsel “needs to as far removed from the State of California as possible - to ensure complete independence and any potential conflicts of interest.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Phil Corwin<br><b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2015 22:08<br><b>To:</b> Edward Morris; Greg Shatan</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br><b>Cc:</b> Accountability Cross Community<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Thinking ahead - overcoming the legal obstacles to accountability<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p></div></div><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Agreed.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It would be remiss not to take available ICANN funds to hire qualified and expert counsel on these important questions. Those funds have been derived from the community, primarily in the form of registrant fees upstreamed through contracted parties.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As Greg observed, so long as the WG has the autonomy to select the law firm and the WG and not ICANN is its client, the advice it renders will be independent of ICANN’s views and corporate interest.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Virtualaw LLC</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">1155 F Street, NW</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Suite 1050</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Washington, DC 20004</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><a href="tel:202-559-8597" value="+12025598597" target="_blank">202-559-8597</a>/Direct</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><a href="tel:202-559-8750" value="+12025598750" target="_blank">202-559-8750</a>/Fax</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><a href="tel:202-255-6172" value="+12022556172" target="_blank">202-255-6172</a>/cell</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:navy"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Twitter: @VlawDC</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey</span></i></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org]" target="_blank">[mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Edward Morris<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 17, 2015 5:03 PM<br><b>To:</b> Greg Shatan<br><b>Cc:</b> Accountability Cross Community<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Thinking ahead - overcoming the legal obstacles to accountability<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Excellent explanation of a component of American legal practice that non-Americans or non-lawyers may not be familiar with. Thank you very much Greg.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br><br>Sent from my iPad<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>On Feb 17, 2015, at 9:58 PM, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kieren,<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I don't think it is foolish at all to have ICANN pay for the independent advice. It is not uncommon for one party to pay the bill and for another party to be the client. It's not even uncommon to have a board committee of a corporation hire independent counsel where the committee's interests are divergent from the corporation (e.g., when dealing with an internal investigation) and have the corporation pay. These are situations that law firms are comfortable handling. Basically, the question is "who is the client?" and the client would be the Working Group(s), not ICANN. The law firm's ethical "duty of loyalty" is to the client, not the entity paying the bills. Given that these ethical rules are in fact taken very seriously and that these are all firms that likely have over $1 billion in revenues, the temptation to "cheat" and be ICANN-friendly would be basically non-existent.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">What would be foolish would be to fail to set up the relationship between the firm and the Working Group(s) in the ways needed to maintain "independence." and/or to then fail to govern ourselves (and for ICANN to govern itself) in a way that preserves that independence. That would be a huge waste of time, money and effort, likely set back transition schedules, and send a terrible message regarding ICANN's accountability and self-control.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Kieren McCarthy <<a href="mailto:kieren@kierenmccarthy.com" target="_blank">kieren@kierenmccarthy.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt">May I suggest that we express our emotions using more friendly words (! foolish). </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt">I'm not sure why the use of "foolish" concerns you so much, Seun. I think it *is* foolish to allow ICANN to pay for independent advice that we would expect to contradict its own legal advice and on a topic of supreme importance to the organization.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt">I could say "ill advised" or "unwise" or "incautious" but that would be fake diplomacy on my part. I mean "foolish". I wouldn't use, say, "idiotic" or "stupid" because they would imply people here are not intelligent when they clearly are. But even very smart people can be foolish.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#888888">Kieren</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">Hi Kieren,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">May I suggest that we express our emotions using more friendly words (! foolish). That said, I think you raised good point; issue 2 seem to be a stress test case of issue 1 and I would suggest it is added to the existing list of stress test scenarios.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">From what I gathered so far ( including from ICANN 52), this process seem to be beyond business as usual, Especially as we heard the board confirm it won't alter the outcome of this process when presenting to NTIA. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">One other thing that may be important though is to ensure implementation is a perquisite to transition [which i fear will also further confirm the reality of !transition by Sept :( ]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">Cheers!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">sent from Google nexus 4<br>kindly excuse brevity and typos.<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 17 Feb 2015 20:13, "Kieren McCarthy" <<a href="mailto:kieren@kierenmccarthy.com" target="_blank">kieren@kierenmccarthy.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><blockquote><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hello all, <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There have been no less than seven previous attempts to introduce real accountability at ICANN. They have all failed to achieve a fundamental goal: override or impact ICANN corporate (under whatever circumstances).<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In the specific cases where the override recommendations have been explicit, they have been undermined at the last step by ICANN internal legal advice.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This group has, to some degree, learned from the past by deciding that it needs to get independent legal advice for its recommendations as part of the process. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Even more usefully, ICANN's legal team has been prompted into providing its own legal analysis so we know what its position is ahead of time.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Aside from the fact that I think allowing ICANN to pay for the external independent legal advice is foolish in the extreme, I see two fundamental issues for this group to discuss and reach agreement on if this process is to have the desired end result. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And they are:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">1. What happens if/when the independent legal advice say a particular mechanism is perfectly legal but ICANN's internal legal advice say it isn't?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">What will Board members do? How do we ensure this discussion happens publicly and with plenty of time remaining?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I think we should ask Board members now what they would do. Would they be willing to override internal legal advice, and under what circumstances? Will they commit to some kind of binding arbitration in the event that the two legal advices conflict in fundamentally important ways?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This is an almost inevitable scenario so let's get ahead of it now and make reasoned decisions before the pressure and politics come into play. Plan ahead.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2. A fundamentally piece of the accountability mechanisms that are likely to be recommended includes making ICANN a member organization of some type.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We have Jones Day on record as saying that don't think California law allows anyone but the Board to make final decisions (in fact, they don't actually say that if you read it carefully because they know it's not true).<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">What we don't have is Jones Day/ICANN on record talking about the other legal get-out clause they have used in the past when it comes to accountability: anti-trust law.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ICANN's particular interpretation of anti-trust law has been pulled out as a final defense multiple times but I haven't seen it yet in this latest round of accountability discussions, so it is more than possible that it is holding back that particular defense now that the "California law corporate code" genie is out of the bottle. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I can easily see a scenario where we all agree that it is possible to make these changes under California corporate law and then agree to hand over IANA to ICANN only to find that the Board discovers at the last minute that they also violate anti-trust law and so, regretfully, cannot be implemented. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I would ask this group to try to get ICANN's formal position on anti-trust law with respect to possible changes and also get independent legal advice on that aspect too. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would also recommend that people go through previous failures to introduce recommendations and try to find what the legal justifications were that prevented them from being implemented. And then do the same pre-emptive work so we don't end up repeating history. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hope this is useful.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kieren<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></blockquote></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:12.0pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#17365d">Gregory S. 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