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<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Greg and all,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">in the
early stage of the ICG there was an extensive discussion on how to make decision
and in particular with regards to finding consensus. As a basis I’ve introduced
the related GNSO process you and others are referring to.</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">It turned
out that this approach wasn’t fully acceptable by ICG members, and the result is
the “<SPAN>ICG Guidelines for Decision Making<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">“
which you may find here: <A
title=https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icg-guidelines-decision-making-17sep14-en.pdf
href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icg-guidelines-decision-making-17sep14-en.pdf">https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icg-guidelines-decision-making-17sep14-en.pdf</A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">Transparency of
the consensus building process of the various groups providing proposals for
IANA stewardship transition is of utmost importance.<BR><BR>Best
regards<BR><BR>Wolf-Ulrich<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gregshatanipc@gmail.com
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">Greg Shatan</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:18 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com
href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com">Kavouss Arasteh</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=accountability-cross-community@icann.org
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Meeting with CCWG
Advisors</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Dear
Kavouss,</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for
your email. I am sorry you disagree with the decision that was made a number of
years ago to adopt that level of consensus in the GNSO and to call it
"consensus." However, this definition of "consensus" is a fact -- this is
the <I>de jure</I> standard for consensus in the GNSO. While one can
disapprove of a fact, I'm not sure that one can disagree with a fact (at least,
not with any effect). Since it is a fact, we will need to deal with it as
such. In order to communicate between sectors of the community about
consensus, we need to make sure we know what one means when one says
consensus. Since we don't all mean the same thing, we need modifiers to
avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding.</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">As to whether
this matches any international practice, I believe it matches the practice of
the IETF; although they call it "rough consensus," it is their general
decision-making threshold ("We believe in rough consensus and running
code...."). So, at least in this corner of the world, we are not
alone.</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Best
regards,</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Greg</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">.<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 3:35 AM, Kavouss Arasteh <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>Dear Greg</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry to be late in replying to your message.</DIV>
<DIV>I regret that I disagree with definition of "consensus" as used by
GNSO</DIV>
<DIV>That is an inappropriate invention which does not match any international
practice due to the fact that even when a minority disagree to an issue under
discussion it is no longer fit with the general understanding of the
sense of " consensus" which simply describe a case in which while a minority
disagree with a conclusion but they do not express any objection yo that
conclusion i.e. That minority COULD LIVE with that conclusion</DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV><SPAN>
<DIV>Kavouss</DIV>
<DIV> <BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR>On 23 Mar 2015, at 22:45, Greg Shatan <<A
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target=_blank>gregshatanipc@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Whether we
use modifiers before "consensus," we just need to have a common
understanding of what is meant in a given situation when we say
"consensus."</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Within the
GNSO, we typically don't use a modifier before "consensus." We know
what is meant by "consensus" in the GNSO, particularly in the PDP context.
It's defined in Section 3.6 of the GNSO Working Group Guidelinesl:
"Consensus - a position where only a small minority disagrees, but most
agree" <A
href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/council/annex-1-gnso-wg-guidelines-13nov14-en.pdf"
target=_blank>http://gnso.icann.org/en/council/annex-1-gnso-wg-guidelines-13nov14-en.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">When we get
out of the GNSO (like Hobbits leaving the Shire), we know that not everyone
else defines "consensus" that way, so we resort to modifiers, to make sure
that we are clearly understood.</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">If we are
going to create new definitions of consensus for particular groups or
processes, we need to be clear what they are, and make sure they can be
identified in a way that distinguishes that "consensus" from GNSO
"consensus" or GAC "consensus" or IETF "consensus." If we are going to
borrow existing consensus definitions, we still need to make sure they can
be identified and distinguished from other variant forms of "consensus."
Modifiers seem like a straightforward way to do so. If there are other
ways to do so, I am open to hearing about them. If certain kinds of
modifiers create problems, we can avoid those modifiers. We could even
use colors -- the modifiers just need to lead us to the right meaning, they
don't need to have meaning in and of themselves.</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default style="FONT-FAMILY: verdana,sans-serif">Greg
Shatan</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Kavouss Arasteh
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com"
target=_blank>kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>thanks to all</DIV>
<DIV>I do nit believe that for every community we need to define
modifier.</DIV>
<DIV>I am not in favour of copying and definition from any community</DIV>
<DIV>We should deal with each subject based on its merits snd in a case by
case basis</DIV>
<DIV>Kavouss</DIV>
<DIV> <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR>On 22 Mar 2015, at 21:52, Avri Doria <<A
href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target=_blank>avri@acm.org</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Hi,<BR><BR>In ICANN, we do have modifiers before Consensus.
And varying definitions depending on which of the SOAC or processes we
are talking about.<BR><BR>In GNSO PDP processes we talk about Full
Consensus versus Consensus and that definiton of Consensus is not all
that diffferent from the IETF defintion of rough consensus; though we
often use polls instead of humming to help figure out how to continue
the discussion toward consensus.<BR><BR>The GNSO definition is different
from the GAC deffintion which I wont presume to define.<BR><BR>And in
defining ICANN Consensus Policy, we have yet another definition
which often depends on voting thresholds.<BR><BR>Personally I find it
hard to talk about Consensus in ICANN without using modifiers of some
sort. <BR><BR>As for an ICG definition of Consensus, that is
beyond my pay grade to try and fathom.<BR><BR>avri<BR><BR>
<DIV>On 22-Mar-15 20:57, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Dear All,</DIV>
<DIV>Some relevant questions and good reply.</DIV>
<DIV>I strongly oppose any adjustive before consensus whether it
is " rough " or " Soft" or any thing else.</DIV>
<DIV>We are CCWG and not IETF.</DIV>
<DIV>In ICG that term even though proposed was abandonnned</DIV>
<DIV>Pls kindly do not interpret " CONSENSUS" </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV>Kavouss </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2015-03-22 19:18 GMT+01:00 Rahul Sharma <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:wisdom.stoic@gmail.com"
target=_blank>wisdom.stoic@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV dir=ltr>Hi Arun,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just thinking aloud on the substance pointer raised - can
multistakholder model be evolved in a manner that ensures
proportional representation in communities, forums, structures and
Board. When I say proportional, I mean proportional to Internet
population of the country.<BR><BR>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Rahul Sharma</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 22 March 2015 at 15:04, Arun Sukumar <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:arun.sukumar@nludelhi.ac.in"
target=_blank>arun.sukumar@nludelhi.ac.in</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Valerie D'Costa, an advisor to the CCWG, raised a
couple of interesting and important questions on process and
substance. I hope this is a faithful reproduction.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On process:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. What should be the role of advisors? Should they offer
advice on the basis of unanimity or "rough consensus", or just
provide input independently? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. Should advisors restrict their role to responding to
questions that have been flagged by the CCWG and routed through
the chairs? Or should they/ can they flag issues they feel are
important - weighed from their expertise. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On substance:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. How is the accountability process taking stock of the
evolving "global internet community", given that it is going to be
driven by numbers from the developing world? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. Taking off from Q1, is the CCWG evaluating the future
capacity of ICANN to be truly representative in the years to
come?</DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>arun</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>-
<DIV>@<A href="http://www.twitter.com/arunmsukumar"
target=_blank>arunmsukumar</A></DIV>
<DIV>Senior Fellow, <A href="http://www.ccgdelhi.org"
target=_blank>Centre for Communication Governance</A></DIV>
<DIV>National Law University, New Delhi</DIV>
<DIV>Ph: <A href="tel:%2B91-9871943272" target=_blank
value="+919871943272">+91-9871943272</A></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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