<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Dear Kavouss,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for your email. I am sorry you disagree with the decision that was made a number of years ago to adopt that level of consensus in the GNSO and to call it "consensus." However, this definition of "consensus" is a fact -- this is the <i>de jure</i> standard for consensus in the GNSO. While one can disapprove of a fact, I'm not sure that one can disagree with a fact (at least, not with any effect). Since it is a fact, we will need to deal with it as such. In order to communicate between sectors of the community about consensus, we need to make sure we know what one means when one says consensus. Since we don't all mean the same thing, we need modifiers to avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As to whether this matches any international practice, I believe it matches the practice of the IETF; although they call it "rough consensus," it is their general decision-making threshold ("We believe in rough consensus and running code...."). So, at least in this corner of the world, we are not alone.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Best regards,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 3:35 AM, Kavouss Arasteh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Dear Greg</div><div>Sorry to be late in replying to your message.</div><div>I regret that I disagree with definition of "consensus" as used by GNSO</div><div>That is an inappropriate invention which does not match any international practice due to the fact that even when a minority disagree to an issue under discussion it is no longer fit with the general understanding of the sense of " consensus" which simply describe a case in which while a minority disagree with a conclusion but they do not express any objection yo that conclusion i.e. That minority COULD LIVE with that conclusion</div><div>Regards</div><span class=""><div>Kavouss</div><div> <br>Sent from my iPhone</div></span><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On 23 Mar 2015, at 22:45, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Whether we use modifiers before "consensus," we just need to have a common understanding of what is meant in a given situation when we say "consensus."</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Within the GNSO, we typically don't use a modifier before "consensus." We know what is meant by "consensus" in the GNSO, particularly in the PDP context. It's defined in Section 3.6 of the GNSO Working Group Guidelinesl: "Consensus - a position where only a small minority disagrees, but most agree" <a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/council/annex-1-gnso-wg-guidelines-13nov14-en.pdf" target="_blank">http://gnso.icann.org/en/council/annex-1-gnso-wg-guidelines-13nov14-en.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">When we get out of the GNSO (like Hobbits leaving the Shire), we know that not everyone else defines "consensus" that way, so we resort to modifiers, to make sure that we are clearly understood.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If we are going to create new definitions of consensus for particular groups or processes, we need to be clear what they are, and make sure they can be identified in a way that distinguishes that "consensus" from GNSO "consensus" or GAC "consensus" or IETF "consensus." If we are going to borrow existing consensus definitions, we still need to make sure they can be identified and distinguished from other variant forms of "consensus." Modifiers seem like a straightforward way to do so. If there are other ways to do so, I am open to hearing about them. If certain kinds of modifiers create problems, we can avoid those modifiers. We could even use colors -- the modifiers just need to lead us to the right meaning, they don't need to have meaning in and of themselves.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg Shatan</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Kavouss Arasteh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div> thanks to all</div><div>I do nit believe that for every community we need to define modifier.</div><div>I am not in favour of copying and definition from any community</div><div>We should deal with each subject based on its merits snd in a case by case basis</div><div>Kavouss</div><div> <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div><div><br>On 22 Mar 2015, at 21:52, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
Hi,<br>
<br>
In ICANN, we do have modifiers before Consensus. And varying
definitions depending on which of the SOAC or processes we are
talking about.<br>
<br>
In GNSO PDP processes we talk about Full Consensus versus Consensus
and that definiton of Consensus is not all that diffferent from the
IETF defintion of rough consensus; though we often use polls instead
of humming to help figure out how to continue the discussion toward
consensus.<br>
<br>
The GNSO definition is different from the GAC deffintion which I
wont presume to define.<br>
<br>
And in defining ICANN Consensus Policy, we have yet another
definition which often depends on voting thresholds.<br>
<br>
Personally I find it hard to talk about Consensus in ICANN without
using modifiers of some sort. <br>
<br>
As for an ICG definition of Consensus, that is beyond my pay grade
to try and fathom.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<div>On 22-Mar-15 20:57, Kavouss Arasteh
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div> Some relevant questions and good reply.</div>
<div>I strongly oppose any adjustive before consensus whether
it is " rough " or " Soft" or any thing else.</div>
<div>We are CCWG and not IETF.</div>
<div>In ICG that term even though proposed was abandonnned</div>
<div>Pls kindly do not interpret " CONSENSUS" </div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>Kavouss </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2015-03-22 19:18 GMT+01:00 Rahul Sharma
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wisdom.stoic@gmail.com" target="_blank">wisdom.stoic@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Arun,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just thinking aloud on the substance pointer raised -
can multistakholder model be evolved in a manner that
ensures proportional representation in communities,
forums, structures and Board. When I say proportional, I
mean proportional to Internet population of the country.<br>
<br>
Regards,</div>
<div>Rahul Sharma</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On 22 March 2015 at 15:04, Arun
Sukumar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:arun.sukumar@nludelhi.ac.in" target="_blank">arun.sukumar@nludelhi.ac.in</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Valerie D'Costa, an advisor to the
CCWG, raised a couple of interesting and
important questions on process and substance. I
hope this is a faithful reproduction.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On process:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. What should be the role of advisors?
Should they offer advice on the basis of
unanimity or "rough consensus", or just
provide input independently? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Should advisors restrict their role to
responding to questions that have been flagged
by the CCWG and routed through the chairs? Or
should they/ can they flag issues they feel
are important - weighed from their expertise. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On substance:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. How is the accountability process taking
stock of the evolving "global internet
community", given that it is going to be
driven by numbers from the developing world? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Taking off from Q1, is the CCWG
evaluating the future capacity of ICANN to be
truly representative in the years to come?</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>arun</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">-
<div>@<a href="http://www.twitter.com/arunmsukumar" target="_blank">arunmsukumar</a></div>
<div>Senior Fellow, <a href="http://www.ccgdelhi.org" target="_blank">Centre for
Communication Governance</a></div>
<div>National Law University, New
Delhi</div>
<div>Ph: <a href="tel:%2B91-9871943272" value="+919871943272" target="_blank">+91-9871943272</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
</div>
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