<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#330033">
Hi<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05-Apr-15 10:03, Carlos Raúl
Gutiérrez wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:3F80AFF0-D9A5-4349-ABDB-21E72CC56871@isoc-cr.org"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Dear Avri,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">se my question inline please</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Carlos Raúl
Gutiérrez</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;"
class="">
<span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">_____________________</span><br
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 5, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Avri Doria <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:avri@acm.org"
class="">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">Hi,</span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">From my participant
point of view,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">On Community:</span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">I believe that
community and the AC/SO community are nearly coincident,
in an asymptotic way. In the case where they are not,
it is mostly due, in my opinion, to inadequate outreach
and engagement. Governments are included, can, and do,
participate in the processes. Hopefuly more countries
will engage earlier in the process all the time. The
users are represented in a network of local user
organizations. There should be more of these all the
time and they should become more engaged in the process.
The commercial interests are engaged in many ways, and I
expect in more ways all the time. And various special
interests like security and stability of the Internet
and rights on the Internet are also represented to
varying degrees among the AC/SO. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I don’t feel confident by your equation of community =
AC/SO, even under the asymptotic conditions (in the long
term we are all dead, Keynes used to say). AC/SO are
structured differently internally. While there may be an
analogy between the "geographic coverage” objectives of
ALACA, GAC and ccNSO, their internal composition couldn’t be
more varied. The same for the internal composition of the
GNSO. Can the GNSO speak authoritatively for all its
constituencies at the community level? We see symptoms of
those internal differences in the definition of consensus
for example. And Parmider already notices some cross
representation of certain loosely defined groups.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is another reason that I believe the that broad open comment in
multiple scripts and languages is critical. <br>
<br>
I am personally not bothered by each organization finding its own
bottom-up way to its own notion of representativity and consensus.
I also believe that the mesh organizational structure that ICANN has
with its SO/AC, where one community axis works on solutions in a
single topic, and the other community works on advice concerning all
the cross cutting issues, does lead to a wider consensus. This
despite the different ways of identifying that consensus within the
groups. Everything does not need to the same to be equivalent.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:3F80AFF0-D9A5-4349-ABDB-21E72CC56871@isoc-cr.org"
type="cite">
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">An additional piece
of this community involvement, since the AC/SO can never
reach everyone, relies on the fully open comment periods
that all policy goes through. Everyone is periodically
requested to comment on the problems before they are
worked on, and on the solutions while they are still
drafts and after they are proposed to the Board. More
and more these requests for comment are released in
multiple scripts and languages.</span><br style="color:
rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">On Jurisdiction:</span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">I agree that this is
a basic topic that still needs to be covered. I believe
it is about making sure that any of the stakeholders has
a chance to argue their case in a jurisdictionally
appropriate venue. For States and IGOs, that is not
generally the US court system. A solution for this does
seem to be a necessary part of any accountability
solution.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline
!important; float: none;" class="">avri</span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(51, 0, 51);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 05-Apr-15
01:25, parminder wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5520C74B.2030106@itforchange.net"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font class=""
face="Verdana">Hi All<br class="">
<br class="">
I am unable to attend the legal team meeting on the
8th, but will be grateful if the meaning of the term
'community' is sorted out, and if needed legal advice
taken. It is especially important because the any
final proposal should address the intention of the
original NTIA declaration to transition its current
functions to the 'global multistakeholder community' ,
which to me appears to refer to global public
(although, in my view, in an inadequate manner). If
ICANN's enhanced accountability to its SOs and ASs -
or the 'community' engaged with names and numbers
functions - is to be taken to be meeting the needs of
transitioning NTIA's role to the 'global
multistakeholder community' or the 'global public',
the logic has to be established and explained. I am
right now unable to see the logic.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Also, the jurisdiction question remains basic. If one
prefers concrete examples rather than a larger
political discussion: I think it would be universal
knowledge that as per the applicable US sanctions, no
party or company based in Crimea - and I think also
Iran and Sudan - can legally apply for a gTLD from
ICANN. Tomorrow, God forbid, it could be<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font
class="" face="Verdana">Russia,</font><font class=""
face="Verdana">Venezuela, India, or China, and much
more easily a number of smaller nations. Is such a
situation tenable? I understand that a number of
stress tests are going to be made on any final
proposal. Has the contingency of US sanctions on
different times on different countries, which<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font
class="" face="Verdana">if fully enforced<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font
class="" face="Verdana">would prohibit any US entity
to do any kind of business with those countries, taken
into account as one stress test? If not, please do
include. It is one of the most important stress
situations. It is easy to see that any final proposal
that keeps ICANN within US jurisdiction will fail this
very real stress test. The only solution is an
international jurisdiction for ICANN - but certainly
immunity from the jurisdiction of the one country
which most frequently imposes sanctions and on most
number of countries. This is not a tirade against the
US, which has many good points to be said about it, it
is simply a fact that cannot be refused to be faced.<br
class="">
<br class="">
parminder</font><br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 03 April 2015
02:37 PM, parminder wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:551E5840.7040907@itforchange.net"
type="cite" class=""><font class="" face="Verdana">Dear
All,<br class="">
<br class="">
I request one clarification, and permission to make
one comment.<br class="">
<br class="">
I hear the term 'community' a lot in these
discussions, including in the below mentioned notes/
transcript document. The term has been used to imply
something that is supposed to be able to have agency
and can perform clear tasks - for instance, of
recalling ICANN board members, and possibly
appointing members of the appeals and review teams.
We also see the use of the term 'community
mechanism'. At some point it appears that this
community is basically the SOs and ACs (Icann's
supporting organisations and advisory committees) .
Obvious greater precision is required about the
specific legal/ political meaning of the term
'community' as used in these documents/ discussions,
especially since what is being attempted here is a
new institutional mechanism of global importance.
Inter alia, I will like to know if this community is
the same as the 'global multistakeholder community'
(itself a very uncles term) mentioned in the
original NTIA statement on IANA transition. Finally,
when we are looking at enhancing accountability of
ICANN, is it accountability to global public, or to
some specific community, and if the latter, how is
it defined. One would think that is the foremost and
primary question to be sorted out, and made clear,
beforehand, on the basis on which an accountability
mechanism can be built.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
The comment that I wish to make is about the
discussions on the issue of 'jurisdiction' .<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
At many or most points, I see 'jurisdiction' seen as
merely an enabling framework, spoke of as a somewhat
technical - 'neutral' and more or less given -
construct, that enables Internet's technical and
operational management to take place. As a body of
some kind of ideal standard private law that
supports and enable private contracts. Now, firstly,
a 'jurisdiction' - even in its bare minimum private
transactions enabling aspect - is never a neutral
and static thing, and it can and does change as per
political understanding and priorities of a
political community. The even more important point
is that any jurisdiction</font><font class=""
face="Verdana"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>constitutes
a public accountability mechanism</font><font
class="" face="Verdana">, especially by means of its
public law. The law incorporates the political
priorities of the corresponding political community
(country) and through the backing of coercive force
extracts accountability from all people and
institutions subject to that jurisdiction, as
currently US law extracts public accountability from
ICANN as a UN non-profit. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Jurisdiction is therefore directly related to public
accountability, and cannot be a minor sub point in
the discussion. Lines of thinking like expressed in
a conclusions part below as '</font><font class=""
face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51,
51);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>topic
of jurisdiction comes into scope when a
requirement we have for accountability cannot be
achieved within California jurisdiction</span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>' therefore
worries me a lot. Further, it is not only a question
of whom a jurisdiction (here, the US) responds to,
but the prior question is which political community
forms and informs a jurisdiction (here the US
people). I therefore cannot see how the issue of
ICANN's accountability to the global public can be
addressed without making it subject to international
law, and making it immune to the laws of the country
of its physical presence. That remains the primary
question and issue with regard to ICANN's
accountability.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
Lastly, as a global group, presumably working on the
behalf of the global public, this WG and other
similar ones need to come up with a solution and
institutional mechanism which best serves the
interests of the global public. It need not be
second guessing what would be ok with the US
government and what not - that is for the US
government to think. After all, this processes
merely provides the recommendation for the best
model, the final decision is still US government's
to make. One can still stick to the five conditions
set by the US government to making the oversight
transition, and recommend incorporation of ICANN
under international law with host country immunity.
Subjecting ICANN to the jurisdiction of
international law is the first and the basic
question in terms of its global accountability. Rest
will rather more easily fall in place once we have
decided on this all-important matter.<br class="">
<br class="">
parminder<br class="">
(<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/" style="color:
rgb(129, 78, 149); text-decoration: underline;">www.ITforChange.net</a>)<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</font><br class="">
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br /><br />
<hr style='border:none; color:#909090; background-color:#B0B0B0; height: 1px; width: 99%;' />
<table style='border-collapse:collapse;border:none;'>
<tr>
<td style='border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px'>
<a href="http://www.avast.com/">
<img border=0 src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" alt="Avast logo" />
</a>
</td>
<td>
<p style='color:#3d4d5a; font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica"; font-size:12pt;'>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
<br><a href="http://www.avast.com/">www.avast.com</a>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<br />
</body>
</html>