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<div>Thanks Chris, no apologies necessary...this is exactly the kind of dialogue needed to advance our work. </div>
<div><br>
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<div>Can you be more explicit about the "<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">significant number of sacrifices that would need to be made in a membership scenario" that ccTLDs face? Particularly if any are unique to ccTLDs? </span></div>
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</div>
<div>Sacrifices may be needed (including from the Board) if we are to accomplish the community's broader goal of ensuring the ICANN Board and Staff are truly accountable to the ICANN community for the next decade. As such, it would be good to know, as early
as possible, what those sacrifices might be. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In simple terms, I agree that determining what can and cannot be accomplished within the existing structure is a worthwhile exercise and will help to inform the community. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Based on our work and the relevant independent legal analysis to date, it appears to me that the current construct has significant gaps and shortcomings and won't deliver on our goals, but I support seeking further advice on the topic from our independent
legal advisors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks and regards,</div>
<div>Keith</div>
<div><br>
On Apr 21, 2015, at 5:08 AM, Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au">ceo@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Thanks Keith. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I apologise for pinging back and forth on this but I hope the list will appreciate that it as an indication of how important auDA believes this point is. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As I said on the CCWG call last week, I have serious concerns about the viability of the lawyers' recommended structural changes (at least from a cc point of view) and want to be crystal clear about what we can do or cannot do within the current structure.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For a ccTLD there are a significant number of sacrifices that would need to be made in a membership scenario and I don't believe the cc community can decide whether those sacrifices are worth making unless we can weigh them against what we would be able
to achieve using the current structure. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that is essential that our output to the community contains a clear explanation of what the status quo can achieve. If it does not then IMO it is impossible to judge the other scenarios. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I appreciate your second para and, as a lawyer, I know that time for a response is required. I also appreciate the time constraints under which we are operating. But we will lose more time if the result of our document is a series of questions about whether
there really is a need to make the significant changes being recommended. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In simple terms 'not nearly enough' is not an acceptable response. How can I know that "it" is not nearly enough unless I know what "it" is?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chris Disspain
<div>CEO - auDA</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On 21 Apr 2015, at 18:37, Drazek, Keith <<a href="mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com">kdrazek@verisign.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chris, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe the answer to your question regarding the "no change scenario" and "what the current configuration can achieve" is, "Not nearly enough." </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, I think it's a reasonable question and it should be referred to the CCWG's lawyers and they should be permitted reasonable time to consider and respond.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keith</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Apr 21, 2015, at 4:09 AM, Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au">ceo@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
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</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Greg,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks. At the risk of repeating myself, whilst I understand what you are saying, it is precisely the no change scenario that I am seeking clarity on. I accept that the current configuration may not be "a very good vehicle for many of the enhanced powers"
but I want clarity on what the current configuration CAN achieve. I don't believe we have that yet. <br>
<br>
Chris Disspain
<div>CEO - auDA</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On 21 Apr 2015, at 17:35, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Chris,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The simple answer is that the SOACs as currently configured are not a very good vehicle for many of the enhanced powers we seek. Once you make them into members and give them legal personhood everything else becomes much easier. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, you assumed no change to the SOACs, which made the answers much harder.<span></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greg<br>
<br>
On Tuesday, April 21, 2015, Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au">ceo@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-family:'Verdana';font-size:13px;color:rgb(102,102,102)">Greg, All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect, I think we are overcomplicating the issue. I simply want to gain a base line for the discussion about any changes necessary to achieve what we want. We agreed on jurisdiction that if we can get acceptable escalations and remedies without
changing jurisdiction then we should leave well alone for now, I think we should apply the same principle here. I am clear what the lawyers recommend we do BUT I am not clear about what we can do or what compromises we need to make if we were to maintain the
current structure. I think that is a key part of our deliberations. </div>
<div>
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Chris</p>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 21 Apr 2015, at 16:59 , Greg Shatan <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Kavouss,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">That is not a correct summary of my views. Bylaws provisions are generally enforceable. (As an aside, "enforceable" can be use to mean two different things: (1) is the provision valid, so that
an enforcement effort will not fail, and (2) can the other party or parties undertake an effort to enforce the provision by commencing litigation. I have tried to deal with both aspects of "enforceability," without veering too far into other ways of getting
ones way (e.g., California AG, political pressure, Congressional investigation, pulling out and creating an alternate IANA, etc.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In spite of the general rule, there are two issues in this specific circumstance that undercut this general rule of enforceability. First, a couple of the specific powers that Chris mentions
are ones where a third party is given a right superior the Board to make a decision regarding the management of the company (veto of budget and arbitration to enforce the veto of budget). In a member organization, the members can appropriately be in this
superior position. In a non-member organization, that is inconsistent with the role of the Board, which brings the validity of these bylaw changes as hypothesized by Chris into question. Second, the SO/ACs, as entities currently without legal personhood,
would likely not be able to participate in a litigation to enforce these bylaws; thus, the second type of enforceability is also an issue. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">It may be less troublesome for ICANN to enter into contracts and agree with third parties (i.e., the SO/ACs) that these third parties have the right to veto the budget. (Companies may be able
to agree with third parties to do things that could not be part of their internal governance schema.) However, on further reflection, even this approach has its issues -- as the SO/ACs lack legal personhood currently, they cannot enter into contracts, either.
(By contrast, the bylaws changes can at least be put into place without any action on the SO/AC's part.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I should note that granting third parties the right to approve a bylaw change (the third hypothetical action in Chris's email) is not as exceptional, so is less likely to raise validity concerns.
This still leaves the issue that the SO/AC's lack the requisite legal existence to commence legal action to enforce a bylaws change in the event the Board fails to recognize such a bylaws change.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In my opinion this kind of complexity and uncertainty is precisely why the member model should be adopted.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Kavouss Arasteh <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com');" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Dear All</div>
<div>We complicating the case by envisaging the most extreme exceptional circumstances.</div>
<div>In view of Greg, a Contract provisions are enforceable compared to Bylaws provisions which in his views are not enforceable!</div>
<div>We may put the questions and answers to the lawyers and wait whether are consent?</div>
<div>Could someone take necessary action ( e. g.) co chair in this regard?</div>
<div>Tks</div>
<div>Kavousd</div>
<div> <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On 21 Apr 2015, at 08:02, Greg Shatan <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The questions are simple. The answers may not be.... </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Also, it depends on what the lawyers are currently working on. Further, the meeting is in about 13 hours, and I expect (given the time) at least 6-8 of those hours will be used for sleep and
commuting. So, it's not a lot of time.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">My views are as follows: </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">On question 1, I think there may be issues in granting this right via bylaw, except to statutory members (and possibly to designators, at least where formally denoted as such), but these many
not sufficient issues to cause the bylaw to be invalid. If it's found to be invalid in court, then it would be unenforceable. However, I believe that something similar could be achieved by contract, which should then be enforceable.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">On question 2, I would say that the Board cannot ignore an action mandated by the bylaws without some consequences. The SOs and ACs as currently constituted may not have the necessary legal
personhood to pursue litigation. However, this could be reported to the California Attorney General, who has broad oversight powers relating to non-profits, and would probably be quite interested to hear about a relatively high-profile non-profit where the
Board was ignoring actions mandated by duly approved bylaws. This could certainly be considered "enforcement," broadly speaking. There may also be other parties with legal personhood that could pursue litigation, and other governmental entities (Congress?)
that could make this an exceedingly difficult choice to sustain.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">On 3, if the bylaw says the Board is bound, they're bound, unless the Board were to successfully challenge the validity of the bylaw. Again, it may be possible to achieve this by contract, with
fewer questions raised. And again, there may be issues in granting this right to parties other than members (or possibly formally recognized designators), but those issues may not invalidate the bylaw.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">On 4, I think the answers to question 2 apply here as well.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We can see if counsel agrees with this....</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Caveat: not legal advice, not admitted in California</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ceo@auda.org.au');" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-family:'Verdana';font-size:13px;color:rgb(102,102,102)">Hi León,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Really? They are fairly simple questions. As I said, I can ask them on the call.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Chris</p>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 21 Apr 2015, at 14:32 , León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','leonfelipe@sanchez.mx');" target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Thanks Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I just want to note that for the short notice it is unlikely we will be able to have answers to feed the discussion in our call tomorrow. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>León</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>El 20/04/2015, a las 23:22, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ccwg-accountability5@icann.org');" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>> escribió:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I am forwarding Chris Disspain's email into the Legal Sub Team for further consideration. I will let our counsels respond, should the Legal Sub Team's discussion result in a referral of the
questions to counsel.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg Shatan</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Chris Disspain</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ceo@auda.org.au');" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span><br>
Date: Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:03 AM<br>
Subject: [CCWG-ACCT] Legal question<br>
To: Accountability Cross Community <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community@icann.org');" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-family:'Verdana';font-size:13px;color:rgb(102,102,102)">Hello All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’m not sure if this email should be addressed to the whole group, the legal sub-team or some other. Anyway, I have some questions that I would appreciate answers to from the CCWG’s lawyers. Happy to discuss on the upcoming CCWG call.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Under the current structure of ICANN and its SOs and ACs </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Is it correct that a bylaw saying that a combination of those SOs and ACs can veto the budget or veto a bylaw change can be drafted and put in to the bylaws?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Is it correct that were there to be such a bylaw and the SOs and ACs were to veto the budget or a bylaw change pursuant to that bylaw then the Board of ICANN could ignore that veto and that the SOs and ACs could not enforce the veto?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. Is it correct that the veto bylaw could be drafted to require binding arbitration in the event that the Board refused to follow the SO/AC veto and if so would the Board be bound by the arbitration finding?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>4. Is it correct that a Board spill bylaw could be inserted in to the bylaws and if triggered would be enforceable?<br>
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Chris</p>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 18 Apr 2015, at 14:50 , León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','leonfelipe@sanchez.mx');" target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am forwarding this document from Counsel for your records and for its relevance for our overall work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>León</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Inicio del mensaje reenviado:</div>
<br>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Para:
</b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">"<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ccwg-accountability5@icann.org');" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>" <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ccwg-accountability5@icann.org');" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Fecha:
</b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">17 de abril de 2015 22:21:36 GMT-5<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>De:
</b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ccwg-accountability5@icann.org');" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Asunto:
</b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>[Acct-Legal] (no subject)</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Responder a:
</b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ccwg-accountability5@icann.org');" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Legal Sub-Team, Attached please find revisions to the chart comparing the member and designator approaches from Sidley and Adler & Colvin as requested. Please note that
in our cover memo we have posed several questions for your consideration. We have also provided a discussion of some considerations regarding implementation of both approaches. We are look forward to discussing with CCWG next week. Kind regards, Holly<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">HOLLY J. GREGORY</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
Partner<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sidley Austin LLP</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="tel:%2B1.212.839.5853" value="+12128395853" target="_blank">+1.212.839.5853</a><br>
<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','holly.gregory@sidley.com');" title="Click to send email to Gregory, Holly" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">holly.gregory@sidley.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
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