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While I like Jordan's wording I have to say that I have the same
reservations as Avri and support the inclusion of a community
process to understand and bridge any issues that arise.<br>
<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/2015 3:42 PM, Avri Doria wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:553E4AE1.3010704@acm.org" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi,<br>
<br>
Thanks for these suggestions. I think it offers a good path tto
resolving the issue<br>
<br>
But, personally I do no think that it goes far enough. Just
having the Board give it reasons for rejection is not sufficient.
Those reasons could be specious, indicate a misunderstanding of
the recommendation or be wrong about implementation means and
methods. I think that if they are going to reject, they need to
not only give their resons, but need to initiate a community
process to deal with the issue, whatever it may be. Otherwise, it
might sit and fester for another 5 years.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27-Apr-15 03:25, Jordan Carter
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK2bTy9oG+SJoH9e2mntqidAs+QRsCosOC+MTTXt2Bk9SQRCpg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">hi Avri, all
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Avri: the proposal was in fact to change this, by adding
the following words in the bylaw that would guide all of
these reviews, as follows:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">"<span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Source Sans
Pro';font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">The final
output of all reviews will be published for public
comment. The Board shall consider approval and begin
implementation within six months of receipt of the
recommendations.</span>"</span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">That was how there would be a
"reviewable" point that the other mechanisms for holding the
board to account would be able to react off - the "we won't
decide anything so nothing will be reviewable" risk would be
removed because then they wouldn't have been acting.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">It seems to me though that we
actually should preserve the current approach a little more
closely, while still preserving the obligation to make a
decision.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Therefore (and I'd appreciate eyes on
this from Steve, Matthew, Fiona etc - the team who helped
develop this) - how would this look:</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Replacing the text in the bullet
pointed list at the top of 6.7.2 - this is the part that
explains what we are trying to achieve.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">CURRENT: "<span
id="docs-internal-guid-c3c5bdb1-f9c0-d561-902e-1fbd81f8bb93"><span
style="font-size:15px;font-family:'Source Sans
Pro';color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Require
the ICANN board to approve and implement review team
recommendations, including recommendations from previous
reviews.</span></span>"</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><b>PROPOSED</b>: "Require the ICANN
board to consider review team recommendations, including
recommendations from previous reviews, and make a positive
decision to approve and implement such recommendations or,
if it has reasons to not do so, to set out its reasons."</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Replacing the text in the last box of
the proposed bylaw that would govern all these AOC style
reviews:</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">CURRENT: "<span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Source Sans
Pro';font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap">The final output
of all reviews will be published for public comment. The
Board shall consider approval and begin implementation
within six months of receipt of the recommendations.</span>"</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><b>PROPOSED</b>: "The final output
of all reviews will be published for public comment. The
Board shall consider the recommendations and the public
comments, and within six months of receipt of the
recommendations will either approve and begin
implementation, or explain the reasons in each case where
there is a recommendation it wishes to defer or not
implement.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Thoughts?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">cheers</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Jordan</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 27 April 2015 at 14:59, Avri
Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#330033"> Hi,<br>
<br>
Ok, at this point I no longer think I am confused.
Thanks for the elucidations.<br>
<br>
My current impression is that we have not changed
anything with respect to AOC type review
recommendations, They will essentially remain the way
it they are now. The improvement is that the same
reconsideration and IRP measures will have now, will
be improved. And of course there is the new
non-confidence measure at the end of the road.<br>
<br>
While strengthening the redress measures we are not
doing anything specific to strengthen the uptake of
AOC type review recommendations. If that is what we
have decided, I am ok with it, as long as we do not
claim that we have added anything to the approval of
reports more than we have added to anything else. We
probably should remove the line that says<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Require the ICANN board to
approve and implement review team
recommendations, including<br>
recommendations from previous reviews.</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Since that is not the case as far as I can tell.
What will continue to happen is that the review teams
will submit the report, there will be a public comment
period, and then the Board will decide what it wants
to do with the recommendations. And if the community
does not like it, they can, assuming they have
standing, can request reconsideration, CEP and IRP. <br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<div>On 26-Apr-15 17:30, Jordan Carter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">To add to Jonathan's point, Avri - I
think the new language creating a positive
obligation on the Board to "approve and implement
review team recommendations,
including recommendations from previous reviews."
isn't just reinforcing the status quo. If the
Board fails to do this, it then goes up the
reconsideration/review thing. this is how we
worked around the "what if they just don't decide
anything?" problem.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>cheers</div>
<div>Jordan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 27 April 2015 at
07:29, Jonathan Zuck <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:JZuck@actonline.org"
target="_blank">JZuck@actonline.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">I'm
saying that both adoption and rejection
are reviewable decisions. Inaction would
be the failure to make a decision.<br>
<br>
Sent from my Windows Phone</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<hr> <span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">From:
</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org"
target="_blank">Avri Doria</a></span><br>
<span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">Sent:
</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">4/26/2015
2:41 PM</span><br>
<span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">To:
</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"
target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">Subject:
</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Re:
[CCWG-ACCT] the power to enforce AOC
type (6.7) recommendations</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Does
that help?</span></blockquote>
<br>
Apologies, but I think I remain
confused. <br>
<br>
I understand that we still have the
ultimate accountability function.<br>
Still don't know if there is any other
power.<br>
<br>
First, as far as I remember, we did
not get the Power to force a decision
against complete inaction.<br>
<br>
Also I do not believe that it would be
the case that there was complete
inaction. I am sure that the Board
would review the various
recommendations of the AOC type review
teams. Most reviews contain many
recommendations, and the Board could
accept some and reject others.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">because
once the board has made a
decision, we are putting in
accountability mechanisms to
question that decision</span></blockquote>
<br>
Do you mean reconsideration and IRP?
<br>
<br>
thanks<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<div>On 26-Apr-15 14:03, Jonathan Zuck
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Avri,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
completely agree that this is
new obligation and that it
must find its way into the
bylaws.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As
for your other question, I
think it’s not a question of
giving power to a review team
but rather to the community to
induce the board to accept
recommendations from a review
team.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To
accomplish that, all we need
to do an ensure that the board
actually considers the
recommendations and makes a
decision about them, any
decision because once the
board has made a decision, we
are putting in accountability
mechanisms to question that
decision. The whole that
currently exist is in cases of
complete <i>inaction</i> on
the part of the board.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The
best analogy I think can of at
the moment is the FTC. The
FTC has the ability to hold
companies to their promises.
Getting companies to post
privacy policies is the
equivalent of getting them to
promise something at which
point, they are then subject
to FTC review.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Does
that help?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jonathan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Avri
Doria<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April
26, 2015 1:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"
target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[CCWG-ACCT] the pwoer to
enforce AOC type (6.7)
recommendations</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
In the draft recommendations
(6.7.2):<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Require the
ICANN board to approve and
implement review team
recommendations, including<br>
recommendations from previous
reviews.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">The final
output of all reviews will be
published for public comment.<br>
The Board shall consider
approval and begin
implementation within<br>
six months of receipt of the
recommendations.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
We discussed this as a putting a
greater obligation onf the Board
than it currently has. But I do
not understand how that is the
case. At this point, it is
still up to the Board to agree
or not. <br>
<br>
In responding to a CWG-IANA
based question from an NCSG
member on how the IANA Function
Review recommendation for a
RFP, if such were to ever
happen, would be respected by
the ICANN Board? Couldn't they
just ignore it. <br>
<br>
I did not have a response and am
wondering what part of the
community powers I am
forgetting.<br>
<br>
This points to the more general
question about any
recommendation of an AOC type
review.<br>
<br>
Other than the no-confidence
removal of the Board (6.6.6. got
to love the numer!), is there
anything that gives the AOC-Like
review recommendations the sort
of Community powers that we have
discussed having for budgets,
strategy & operational plans
(6.6.2) ? Is it possible to
include Board rejection of AOC
type review recommendations
under the category of decision
that can be overruled by
members? Or is that class of
decsion restricted by statute?<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">Jordan Carter<br>
<br>
Chief Executive <br>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Matthew Shears
Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
+ 44 (0)771 247 2987</pre>
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