<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">+1<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As JFK famously said when he arrived in Windhoek: ICH BIN EIN NAMIBIER!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">_____________________</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">email: </span><a href="mailto:crg@isoc-cr.org" class="">crg@isoc-cr.org</a><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Skype: carlos.raulg</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">+506 8837 7173 (cel)</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">+506 4000 2000 (home)</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">+506 2290 3678 (fax)</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">_____________________</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Apartado 1571-1000</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><div class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">San Jose, COSTA RICA</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 27, 2015, at 5:39 AM, Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" class="">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">OK Doctor -- I'll bite. Does the USG have a claim on the root? As a<br class="">factual matter, has it ever asserted such a claim? If so, please point me<br class="">to that claim as a statement of USG policy. A web link or a PDF will be<br class="">sufficient. If it has not ever made such a claim, then asking whether the<br class="">USG has a claim to the root is like asking whether Rosenzweig has a claim to<br class="">the .na ccTLD. Theoretically, conceivable but in practice irrelevant.<br class=""><br class="">Paul<br class=""><br class="">Paul Rosenzweig<br class=""><a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" class="">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a> <br class="">O: +1 (202) 547-0660<br class="">M: +1 (202) 329-9650<br class="">VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<br class="">Skype: paul.rosenzweig1066<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">-----Original Message-----<br class="">From: Dr Eberhard W Lisse [<a href="mailto:el@lisse.na" class="">mailto:el@lisse.na</a>] <br class="">Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 4:14 PM<br class="">To: Paul Rosenzweig<br class="">Cc: <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>;<br class=""><a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" class="">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br class="">Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Legal question<br class=""><br class="">That is not the questions, the question is wether the USG DOES have a claim<br class="">on the root, not what its position is on something nor whether the IANA<br class="">function is a service, never mind that any such service would be linked to<br class="">the root (asset, property or whatever).<br class=""><br class="">And we are actually speaking about the root itself not how it is managed.<br class=""><br class="">Even if we assumed that the service argument were valid, how can someone be<br class="">obliged to accept a service?<br class=""><br class="">Many ccTLD managers do not really mind who keeps the demographic data and<br class="">the name server data current, but I most certainly do not need revocation<br class="">service provided. I personally don't care much about Delegation (including<br class="">Transfer) and Retirement, but these are not uncontroversial, either.<br class=""><br class="">greetings, el<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Apr 25, 2015, at 21:33, Paul Rosenzweig<br class=""></blockquote><paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">The flaw is in the premise of the question -- that the United States <br class="">asserts ownership of or a property interest in the IANA function. The <br class="">US position<br class="">(http://www.ntia.doc.gov/speechtestimony/2015/testimony-assistant-secr<br class="">etary-<br class="">strickling-senate-committee-commerce-science-and-) is that the IANA <br class="">function is a service: "Federal agencies can discontinue obtaining <br class="">such services when they no longer need them. As NTIA made clear at <br class="">the time of its Statement of Policy, it intended only to procure the <br class="">IANA functions services until such time as the transition to private <br class="">sector management of the Internet DNS was complete."<br class=""><br class="">Paul<br class=""><br class="">Paul Rosenzweig<br class="">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com<br class="">O: +1 (202) 547-0660<br class="">M: +1 (202) 329-9650<br class="">VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<br class="">Skype: paul.rosenzweig1066<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">-----Original Message-----<br class="">From: Dr Eberhard W Lisse [mailto:el@lisse.NA]<br class="">Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 12:34 PM<br class="">To: accountability-cross-community@icann.org<br class="">Cc: ccwg-accountability5@icann.org; Lisse Eberhard<br class="">Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Legal question<br class=""><br class="">Avri,<br class=""><br class="">at issue is not that it is the US (government) which has a "claim"<br class="">on it, but whether this "claim" allows the USG to do what it wants to <br class="">do, and how this affects (ccTLD)s.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Under whose oversight something was created does not matter, it <br class="">matters by whom (including acting on behalf of), dependence does mean <br class="">equally little in this regards.<br class=""><br class="">Having factual control over something does not mean it is right (or <br class="">even legal).<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">This is not scholarly or academic, at all.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Let me give you (a real life) example:<br class=""><br class=""> Namibia inherited stewardship of an island (as large as a<br class=""> baseball field) in a river next to Botswana at independence<br class=""> from South Africa. Until independence South Africa had<br class=""> stewardship, and the Botswana government did not feel in a<br class=""> position to challenge that. After Namibia's independence<br class=""> Botswana occupied it and when this went to (International)<br class=""> Court, it turned out stewardship had belonged to Botswana<br class=""> all along.<br class=""><br class=""> So it was duly returned by Namibia.<br class=""><br class="">see <br class="">http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=505&p1=3&p2=3&case=98&p3=5<br class="">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedudu (in particular the second last<br class="">paragraph) and<br class="">http://webworld.unesco.org/water/wwap/pccp/cd/pdf/educational_tools/co<br class="">urse_m <br class="">odules/reference_documents/sharinginternwatercases/sciencehistory.pdf<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> Now imagine the South African government had sold the island<br class=""> to someone who then had invested significantly in a Lodge<br class=""> type of thing...<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">How on earth can you give something away that doesn't belong to you?<br class=""><br class="">Or if it does, what rules does the USG have for disposing of assets <br class="">(such as this)?<br class=""><br class="">By the way, the view that The IANA Function is being executed well is <br class="">most certainly not shared by many ccTLD Managers.<br class=""><br class="">There have been significant issues with response times in the past <br class="">(which is an operational issue and would fall under CWG, and seems to <br class="">have imporev a lot anyway) but in particular the ones that are being <br class="">or have been leaned on by the IANA Department, or where the ccTLD has <br class="">been revoked under extremely dubious circumstances (.PN, .KE, .AU and <br class="">recently .ML to name but a few) but also the ccNSO which chartered the <br class="">FoI Wg (with the GAC() for this very reason.<br class=""><br class="">Which I why am concerned about the lack of accountability in this <br class="">regards needing to be improved before the transition.<br class=""><br class="">greetings, el<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 2015-04-25 16:31 , Avri Doria wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">Fool that I sometimes am, i have been thinking about your question <br class="">from a CCWG participant perspective, and from the perspective of a <br class="">USAn.<br class=""><br class="">Also not a international lawyer or lawyer of any sort.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 25-Apr-15 10:31, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:<br class="">This does not even address the question whether the USG has any <br class="">claim to the root, and the numerous consequences originating from this.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I do not think of the US as having a claim on it. But I am sure that <br class="">this is an issue legal scholars could have a good discussion on. It <br class="">would be interesting* to see some exegesis from the global legal <br class="">scholars on this issue. I bet it would make for fascinating reading, <br class="">and I am sure there are many different interesting scholarly <br class="">perspectives on it.<br class=""><br class="">Interesting issue, but I do not see it as a gating issue for the <br class="">_Accountability_ CCWG<br class=""><br class="">I do think of the US as currently having responsibility for it. It <br class="">was created under their oversight, for better or worse the world has <br class="">become dependent on it, and until they can hand the responsibility to <br class="">others, it is their problem. They are trying, for the most part, to <br class="">hand the Stewardship responsibilities off to an appropriate <br class="">multi-stakeholder group.<br class=""><br class="">There seems to be a broad view, though not universal, that ICANN does <br class="">a decent job as the current IANA function operator. But while they <br class="">do the job of IANA well, there is also broad agreement, though not <br class="">universal, that ICANN needs to become more accountable as part of any <br class="">transfer of Stewardship. US oversight, and international pressure on <br class="">the US on they way they do the oversight, has been important in <br class="">trying to keep ICANN in line. Lose that, and people start to worry.<br class=""><br class="">So I think that whether the US has a claim to the root or not is an <br class="">interesting side issue, and I love interesting side issues, but I do <br class="">not believe it is material to the work this group has been assigned <br class="">to do.<br class=""><br class="">I do not support passing this on to the legal firms we have, as it is <br class="">not gating for this group and is not in either law firms skill set or <br class="">terms of reference, as I understand them. As I am not a member of <br class="">the legal sub-team, my opinion on this is without weight, but I felt <br class="">like expressing it this fine Saturday morning.<br class=""><br class="">cheers<br class=""><br class="">avri<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">* Should the US congress decide it is in the position to stop a <br class="">transition that there is broad agreement on, then this scholarly <br class="">research might become useful. But that will not be a task for this <br class="">group either.<br class=""></blockquote>[...]<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list <br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list <br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>