<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Greg,<div><br></div><div>In haste - see below.<br><div>
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<p class="p1"><br></p>
<p class="p2">Cheers,</p>
<p class="p3"><br></p>
<p class="p2">Chris Disspain<span class="s1"> </span><span class="s2">|</span><span class="s1"> </span>Chief Executive Officer</p>
<p class="p2">.au Domain Administration Ltd</p>
<p class="p2">T: <span class="s3">+61 3 8341 4111</span><span class="s1"> </span><span class="s2">|</span><span class="s1"> </span>F: <span class="s3">+61 3 8341 4112</span></p>
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<br><div><div>On 2 May 2015, at 09:10 , Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Chris,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The UA is composed of the members of the SO/AC or some subset thereof, and the bylaws of the UA would dictate that it should follow the direction of the SO/AC and that the members of the UA have no leeway to deviate from that direction. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If the SO/AC has all the same members as the UA, then there is no possibility that the UA could act differently from the SO/AC. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">So we would need to look at a situation where the members of the UA are a subset of the members of the SO/AC. This breaks down, most likely, to two scenarios. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In the first scenario, a small group of members of the SO/AC are selected by the SO/AC to act as the members of the UA. I would assume, like most elected leaders and representatives, that those chosen would be relatively well-regarded, trustworthy, longstanding, active contributors to that SO/AC (consider,e.g., GNSO councilors or SO/AC leadership as examples), and that they would indicate that they understood the nature of the role as part of the selection process. As an example, let's assume that the members of the GNSO's UA were the Chair of the GNSO and the Chairs of each SG. Your hypothesis is that these 5 worthies would somehow "go rogue" and hijack the GNSO's UA, violate the bylaws of the UA, and refuse to follow directions from the GNSO (which would undoubtedly be quite public).</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>My point is - if the UA did, what legally enforceable rights would the gNSO have?</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In the second scenario, a large number (but not all) of the members of the (e.g.) GNSO become members of the GNSO's UA. As in the first scenario, they would acknowledge and agree as a condition of membership the nature of their role and the role of the UA. Again, your hypothesis is that this mass of GNSO members would somehow break from the GNSO and the SGs that they are members of, and act in violation of the UAs bylaws and their agreement to act in a limited capacity.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My point is - if the UA did, what legally enforceable rights would the gNSO have?</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">In response (either way), the GNSO would have removed these "rogues" as members of the UA and replaced them with a crew that would act in accordance with the bylaws and the direction of the GNSO.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><br><div>My point is - what legally enforceable rights would the gNSO have to do this?</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> In all likelihood, they would be removed from the GNSO as well. So your hypothetical further assumes that, in spite of this gross violation of the UA's bylaws and a public declaration that the members were being removed and replaced and that the invalid actions were being reversed, the other UAs (and/or ICANN) would continue to recognize the invalid actions of the rogue deposed members and not the actions of the replacement members acting in accordance with the public instructions of the GNSO.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I suppose there is a technical possibility that this could occur, but I fail to see it as a practical possibility. Furthermore, if this has happened, ICANN and the multistakeholder model must have become so incredibly broken that an attempt to hijack UA would not be our most significant concerns.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But apparently if the Board refused to follow the instructions of the SOs and ACs (re budget veto, by law changes, Board spill etc.) pursuant to its bylaws that is a) far more likely as a practical possibility and b) the model would be less broken and thus we need to concentrate on completely re-building ICANN to ensure that doesn’t happen. That seems a bit odd to me.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">That said, it's appropriate to clarify the answer to your question from a legal standpoint as well as a practical one and we'll look to Sidley and Adler & Colvin to help us with that.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll assume it attempts to. Here's what is says:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span>"The control mechanism for an SO/AC over its unincorporated association could be essentially the same as whatever control mechanisms currently exist to ensure that </span><span>the SO/ACs do what their participants collectively decide they should do. <b>For example, if an SO/AC has a chair, that chair could be empowered and directed by the participants in the SO/AC to cause the unincorporated association of that SO/AC to act as dir</b></span><span><b>ected by the SO/AC to exercise membership or designator rights.</b> If the chair refused, that chair could presumably be subjected to discipline or removed and replaced under existing procedures within the SO or AC, just as if the chair had refused to take an</span><span>y other action as directed by the SO/AC. If existing control mechanisms within SO/ACs are insufficient, the SO/AC could modify them to address the weakness."</span></span></div><div><br></div><div>I refer to the text in bold. I agree. However this does not answer the question, "and what power of enforcement over the UA does the SO or AC have if the UA refuses to act as directed or if it starts to act on its own behalf without direction?".</div><div><br></div><div>This is and has been the point I have been making for the last day or so. <span class=""><br><br><div>Cheers,</div><div> </div><div>Chris Disspain | Chief Executive Officer</div><div>.au Domain Administration Ltd</div><div>T: <a href="tel:%2B61%203%208341%204111" value="+61383414111" target="_blank">+61 3 8341 4111</a> | F: <a href="tel:%2B61%203%208341%204112" value="+61383414112" target="_blank">+61 3 8341 4112</a></div><div>E: <a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a> | W: <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank">www.auda.org.au</a></div><div> </div><div>auDA - Australia's Domain Name Administrator</div></span></div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On 2 May 2015, at 08:20, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx" target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi Chris!</div><div><br></div><div>I'm sorry but can't tell because I'm on the road and haven't had the chance to go through the document but I forwarded it because I didn't want to hold it. </div><div><br>Cheers!<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>León</div><div><br></div><div>Enviado desde el móvil.</div><div>Errores tipográficos son culpa del tecladito y mis dedos gordos. </div></div><div><br>El may 1, 2015, a las 3:17 PM, Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>> escribió:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Thanks <span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">León.</span></div><div><br></div><div>Jus to check, are the changes meant to deal with the question I asked the other day and have been exchanging with Greg and Jordan about? Or is that being answered separately?<br><br><div>Cheers,</div><div> </div><div>Chris Disspain | Chief Executive Officer</div><div>.au Domain Administration Ltd</div><div>T: <a href="tel:%2B61%203%208341%204111" value="+61383414111" target="_blank">+61 3 8341 4111</a> | F: <a href="tel:%2B61%203%208341%204112" value="+61383414112" target="_blank">+61 3 8341 4112</a></div><div>E: <a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a> | W: <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank">www.auda.org.au</a></div><div> </div><div>auDA - Australia's Domain Name Administrator</div></div><div><br>On 2 May 2015, at 08:10, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx" target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div><div>An update from the lawyers with regards to UAs<br><br>Best regards,<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>León</div><div><br></div><div>Enviado desde el móvil.</div><div>Errores tipográficos son culpa del tecladito y mis dedos gordos. </div></div><div><br>Inicio del mensaje reenviado:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><b>De:</b> List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>><br><b>Fecha:</b> 1 de mayo de 2015, 3:03:54 PM PDT<br><b>Para:</b> "<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> "Sidley ICANN CCWG \(<a href="mailto:sidleyicannccwg@sidley.com" target="_blank">sidleyicannccwg@sidley.com</a>\)" <<a href="mailto:sidleyicannccwg@sidley.com" target="_blank">sidleyicannccwg@sidley.com</a>>, ICANN-Adler <<a href="mailto:ICANN@adlercolvin.com" target="_blank">ICANN@adlercolvin.com</a>><br><b>Asunto:</b> <b>[Acct-Legal] Revised memo on Unincorporated Associations, with sample Articles of Association attached</b><br><b>Responder a:</b> <a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br><br></blockquote><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Dear Legal Sub-team:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We attach a revised version of the unincorporated associations memo from April 23, 2015, which now has a description of the proposed uses of unincorporated associations in
ICANN’s governance structure, and 2 new questions received since April 23, as well as some clarifying edits to prior answers to questions. We hope this is useful for the upcoming call, and perhaps as an annex to the CCWG Draft Proposal. A redline against
the April 23 version will be provided shortly.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Rosemary<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><REVISED memo on unincorporated associations (00673349-4xA3536).docx></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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