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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I listened to the last co-chairs lawyers’ call at; https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602 (I’m a glutton for punishment)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It was a short call and I’ll make a particular note that Leon and Mathieu made a point of not making any decisions on behalf of the whole group and made it
clear anything requiring a decision must be made by the overall CCWG, so I was happy with that side of things myself, most of my own fears about not having a sub-group are somewhat assuaged.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So my paraphrasing and overview is:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lawyers working hard on the models for us collaboratively between the two firms since BA<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lawyers are prepping a presentation to give to us ASAP before Paris if possible, that presentation will take the majority of a call, it can’t be done
quickly, they need about 45mins uninterrupted to go through the presentation and then would likely need Q&A time after they present.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Some small wording/clarifications to come back to the CCWG to make sure everyone’s on the same page<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Everyone feels Paris will be an important time for the models, lawyers will be ready for a grilling on the details of the models from us to flesh
out any of our concerns/questions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Note that the above is all my very condensed overview of the conversations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It seemed like a productive call to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-James<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 06, 2015 5:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Carlos Raul<br>
<b>Cc:</b> accountability-cross-community@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and what have they beenasked to do?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Carlos,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">As the legal sub-team was disbanded, your guess is as good as mine.....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Carlos Raul <<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com" target="_blank">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you Greg!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It makes a lot of sense and I guess those are all good reasons as we hired them in the first place. What are the next steps now? What happened in the recent call?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><a href="tel:%2B506%208837%207176" target="_blank">+506 8837 7176</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Skype carlos.raulg</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">_________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Apartado 1571-1000<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">COSTA RICA</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">That was tried to some extent, at least in the CWG. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">There are several substantial problems with that approach. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">First, lawyers are not fungible. The particular legal skills, background and experience required for the issues before both WGs are fairly specific, and in some cases, very specific. The
primary core competency needed here is corporate governance. While a number of lawyers in the community have a reasonable working knowledge of the area, at least in their home jurisdictions, I don't believe there are any who would say that this is their primary
focus and expertise -- at least none who identified themselves to either WG. The second core competency required, especially in the CCWG, is non-profit law. Again there are a number of lawyers with a decent working knowledge of this fairly broad field, but
not as a primary focus. There may be a couple of lawyers in the community who would claim this fairly broad field as a primary focus and expertise -- but none who became involved with either WG. This then becomes further narrowed by jurisdiction. Since
ICANN is a California non-profit corporation, US corporate governance and non-profit experience is more relevant than experience from other jurisdictions, and California law corporate governance and non-profit experience is more relevant than that from other
US jurisdictions. In my experience, the more a US lawyer focuses on a particular substantive area, the greater their knowledge of and comfort with state law issues in US state jurisdictions other than their own (e.g., someone who spend a majority of their
time working in corporate governance will have a greater knowledge of the law, issues, approaches and trends outside their primary state of practice, while someone who spends a relatively small amount of time in the area will tend to feel less comfortable
outside their home jurisdiction). (An exception is that many US lawyers have specific knowledge of certain Delaware corporate law issues, because Delaware often serves as the state of incorporation for entities operating elsewhere.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Second, lawyers in the community will seldom be seen as neutral advisors, no matter how hard they try. They will tend to be seen as working from their point of view or stakeholder group
or "special interest" or desired outcome, even if they are trying to be even-handed. Over the course of time, this balancing act would tend to become more untenable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Third, the amount of time it would take to provide truly definitive legal advice (research, careful drafting, discussions with relevant "clients", etc.) would be prohibitive, even compared
to the substantial amount of time it takes to provide reasonably well-informed and competent legal-based viewpoints in the course of either WG's work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Fourth, in order to formally counsel the community, the lawyer or lawyers in question would have to enter into a formal attorney-client relationship. Under US law, an attorney-client relationship
may inadvertently be created by the attorney's actions, so attorneys try to be careful about not providing formal legal advice without a formal engagement (sometimes providing an explicit "caveat" if they feel they might be getting too close to providing legal
advice). If the attorney is employed by a corporation, they would likely be unable to take on such a representation due to the terms of their employment, and that is before getting to an exploration of conflict of interest issues. If the attorney is employed
by a firm, the firm would have to sign off on the representation, again dealing with potential conflict issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Fifth, even if the above issues were all somehow resolved, it would be highly unlikely that any such attorney would provide substantial amounts of advice, written memos, counseling, etc.
on a pro bono (unpaid) basis, especially given the time-consuming nature of the work. Pro bono advice and representation is generally accorded to individuals and entities that could not otherwise be able to pay for it. That is clearly not the case here,
at least with ICANN taking financial responsibility. It would likely be very difficult to justify this to, e.g., a firm's pro bono committee, as a valid pro bono representation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Sixth, if ICANN were not taking the role they are taking, it would be extremely difficult to identify the "client" in this situation. The "community" is a collection of sectors, mostly
represented by various ICANN-created structures, which in turn have members of widely varying types (individuals, corporations, sovereigns, non-profits, IGOs, partnerships, etc.). This would also make it extremely difficult to enter into a formal counseling
relationship with the "community."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Seventh, this is a sensitive, high-profile, transformative set of actions we are involved in, which is subject to an extraordinary amount of scrutiny, not least that of the NTIA and the US
Congress. That eliminates any possibility of providing informal, off-the-cuff, reasonably well-informed but not quite expert, "non-advice" advice -- which might happen in a more obscure exercise. There's simply too much at stake.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Finally, I would say that a number of attorneys involved in one or both of the WGs are in fact providing a significant amount of legal knowledge and experience to the WGs, helping to frame
issues, whether in terms of general leadership (e.g., Thomas, Leon, Becky) or more specifically in a "lawyer-as-client" capacity -- working with outside counsel, tackling the more legalistic issues, providing as much legal background and knowledge as possible
without providing the type of formal legal advice that would tend to create an attorney-client relationship, etc. So I do think that many lawyers in the community are giving greatly of themselves in this process, even though they cannot and would not be able
to formally be engaged by the community as its "counsel of record." <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">In sum, it might be a nice thought in theory, but it is no way a practical possibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:08 AM, CW Lists <<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" target="_blank">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Good morning:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I had decided not to enter this debate. But I am bound to say that the thought had occurred to me at the time, that there were more than enough qualified lawyers in this community that they could perfectly well have counselled … themselves.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">CW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 04 Jul 2015, at 08:41, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Wolfgang,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To your first point, the billing rates were clearly stated in the law firms' engagement letters. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To your second point, I'm sure we could all think of other projects and goals where the money could have been "better spent." You've stated yours. But that is not the proper test. This
was and continues to be money we need to spend to achieve the goals we have set. Under different circumstances, perhaps it would be a different amount (or maybe none at all). But it was strongly felt at the outset that the group needed to have independent
counsel. Clearly that counsel needed to have recognized expertise in the appropriate legal areas. As such, I believe we made excellent choices and have been very well represented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">As to your "better spent" test, I just had to have $4000.00 worth of emergency dental work done. This money definitely could have been "better spent" on a nice vacation, redecorating our
living room or on donations to my favored charitable causes. But I had no choice, other than to choose which dentist and endodontist I went to, and I wasn't going to cut corners -- the dental work was a necessity. Similarly, the legal work we are getting
is a necessity and whether we would have preferred to spend the money elsewhere is not merely irrelevant, it is an incorrect and inappropriate proposition. Many of us are investing vast quantities of time that could be "better spent" elsewhere as well, but
we are willing (grudgingly sometimes) to spend the time it takes to get it right, because we believe it needs to be done. This is the appropriate measure, whether it comes to our time or counsels' time. If we believe in this project, we have to invest in
it, and do what it takes to succeed. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Of course, this investment has to be managed wisely and cost-effectively, and by and large, I believe the CCWG has done that reasonably well -- not perfectly, but reasonably well and with
"course corrections" along the way intended to improve that management. It's certainly fair to ask, as Robin has done, for a better understanding of that management as we go along. But asserting that the money could have been "better spent" elsewhere sets
up a false test that we should not use to evaluate this important aspect of our work. Instead, we need to focus on whether the money was "well spent" on these critical legal services. If you have reason to believe it was not, that could be useful to know.
That would at least be the right discussion to have.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 1:13 AM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de" target="_blank">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">HI,<br>
<br>
and please if you ask outside lawyers, ask for the price tag in advance. Some of the money spend fo lawyers could have been spend better to suppport and enable Internet user and non-commercial groups in developing countries.<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
Von: <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> im Auftrag von Robin Gross<br>
Gesendet: Fr 03.07.2015 14:57<br>
An: <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a> Community<br>
Betreff: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and what have they beenasked to do?<o:p></o:p></p>
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After the legal sub-team was disbanded, I haven't been able to follow what communications are happening with CCWG and the independent lawyers we retained.<br>
<br>
I understand the lawyers are currently "working on the various models" and will present something to us regarding that work soon. However, *what exactly* have the lawyers been asked to do and *who* asked them? If there are written instructions, may the group
please see them? Who is now taking on the role of managing the outside attorneys for this group, including providing instructions and certifying legal work?<br>
<br>
Sorry, but I'm really trying to understand what is happening, and there doesn't seem to be much information in the public on this (or if there is, I can't find it). Thanks for any information anyone can provide.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Robin<o:p></o:p></p>
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