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Have to say that I agree with Greg.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/2015 11:28 AM, Greg Shatan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUQas_DF94TtfyCPzw1U3efM6QAfQP+TiX=JO-w81WqcLg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I do not share any of
those "understandings" or "basic principles". Those may be
the opinions of some, but they are by no means the
understandings of the CCWG. I would reject these as basic
principles.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Seun
Ojedeji <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
</div>
I have no problem with having a new proposal
presented. However it is important that there some
adherence to basic principles on proposals that the
ccwg would not want to explore. Three areas comes to
mind:<br>
<br>
</div>
- Its my understanding that anything that will turn
some/all of the SO/AC to members and thereby exposing
them to legal challenge is not acceptable<br>
</div>
- Its my understanding that anything that allows removal
of individual board member without the approval of the
entire(or larger part) of the community is not
acceptable<br>
</div>
- Its my understanding that a solution that allows direct
community veto on certain elements like budget, strategic
plan et all is not acceptable but an indirect enforcement
could be considered (i.e using a power to get another
power executed indirectly)<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some/none of the above may be acceptable by us,
but my point is that there should be some focus
going forward, especially if the target of ICANN54
is to be meet<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Regards<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 3:37
PM, Robin Gross <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I would also
like to hear what they propose at this stage. I
really don't see how it could hurt to have
another proposal to consider. Larry Strickling
did say he wanted us to be sure we examined all
the options carefully.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Robin</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 6, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Greg
Shatan wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I
agree. We should have the benefit
of their thoughts.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul
6, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Jordan Carter
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Well, I would
really really like to see what
the creative thinking they
have done has suggested. I
trust our ability as a group
to make decisions, and do not
believe we should cut off
input from any direction...
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jordan</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
7 July 2015 at 01:13,
James Gannon <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Hey Avri,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes the 3rd
model was brought
up, and the
lawyers feel that
it might be a
cleaner way for us
to get the powers
that we need.</div>
<div>But without a
call from the CCWG
to present it they
feel that its not
their position to
propose a model on
their own
initiative.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Personally i would
like to see what
they have come up
with but the CCWG
would need to ask as
an overall group for
the chairs to direct
them to give some
more information on
the model if we
wanted it.
<div>I think if
after we hear from
them on Tuesdays
call we still feel
we might have some
shortcomings that
it might be the
time to ask them
about the 3rd
option.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also +1 I think
they are really
enjoying the work
and are finding
themselves getting
more and more
involved as we go
on, which is great
for the CCWG as
the more
background and
details they know
the better that
are able to give
us solid well
reasoned advice in
my opinion. </div>
<span><font
color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-James</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>On 6 Jul
2015, at
13:19, Avri
Doria <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a></a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Hi,</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
have not had a
chance to get
back to the
recording of
the call.
Not</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">sure
I will, that
time was the
time I had for
that call and
that is why</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">i
was listening
then.</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">In
any case, the
lawyers were
talking about
a new model
they had come
up</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">with,
but not
knowing what
to do about it
since they had
not been asked</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">for
a new model.</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
was told to
leave before I
got to hear
the end of
that story. Or
about</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">the
model itself.
Anyone who has
had a chance
to listen,
whatever
happened?</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">avri</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">ps.
sometimes i
think the
lawyers are
getting
interested in
what we are</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">doing,
almost like
stakeholders.
not that i
expect them to
give up their</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">hourly
rates because
they are
stakeholders.</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On
06-Jul-15
05:07, James
Gannon wrote:</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<blockquote
type="cite"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
I listened to
the last
co-chairs
lawyers’ call
at;<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602">https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602</a></a><br>
(I’m a glutton
for
punishment)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It was a short
call and I’ll
make a
particular
note that Leon
and<br>
Mathieu made a
point of not
making any
decisions on
behalf of the<br>
whole group
and made it
clear anything
requiring a
decision must
be<br>
made by the
overall CCWG,
so I was happy
with that side
of things<br>
myself, most
of my own
fears about
not having a
sub-group are
somewhat<br>
assuaged.<br>
<br>
So my
paraphrasing
and overview
is:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
·
Lawyers
working hard
on the models
for us
collaboratively<br>
between the
two firms
since BA<br>
<br>
·
Lawyers
are prepping a
presentation
to give to us
ASAP<br>
before Paris
if possible,
that
presentation
will take the
majority of<br>
a call, it
can’t be done
quickly, they
need about
45mins
uninterrupted<br>
to go through
the
presentation
and then would
likely need
Q&A time<br>
after they
present.<br>
<br>
· Some
small
wording/clarifications
to come back
to the CCWG<br>
to make sure
everyone’s on
the same page<br>
<br>
·
Everyone
feels Paris
will be an
important time
for the<br>
models,
lawyers will
be ready for a
grilling on
the details of
the<br>
models from us
to flesh out
any of our
concerns/questions<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Note that the
above is all
my very
condensed
overview of
the<br>
conversations.<br>
<br>
It seemed like
a productive
call to me.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*From:*<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a></a><br>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a></a>]
*On Behalf<br>
Of *Greg
Shatan<br>
*Sent:*
Monday, July
06, 2015 5:33
AM<br>
*To:* Carlos
Raul<br>
*Cc:* <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a></a><br>
*Subject:* Re:
[CCWG-ACCT]
Who is
managing the
lawyers and
what have<br>
they beenasked
to do?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Carlos,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As the legal
sub-team was
disbanded,
your guess is
as good as
mine.....<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jul 6,
2015 at 12:27
AM, Carlos
Raul <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a></a><br>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com</a></a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Thank you
Greg!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It makes a
lot of sense
and I guess
those are all
good reasons
as<br>
we hired
them in the
first place.
What are the
next steps
now?<br>
What
happened in
the recent
call?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best
regards<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Carlos Raúl
Gutiérrez<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B506%208837%207176" value="+50688377176" target="_blank">+506
8837 7176</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="tel:%2B506%208837%207176"><tel:%2B506%208837%207176></a><br>
<br>
Skype
carlos.raulg<br>
<br>
_________<br>
<br>
Apartado
1571-1000<br>
<br>
*COSTA
RICA*<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jul
6, 2015 at
12:02 AM, Greg
Shatan<br>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a></a><span> </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a></a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Chris,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
That
was tried to
some extent,
at least in
the CWG. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There
are several
substantial
problems with
that approach.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First,
lawyers are
not fungible.
The particular
legal skills,<br>
background
and experience
required for
the issues
before both<br>
WGs are
fairly
specific, and
in some cases,
very specific.<span> </span><br>
The
primary core
competency
needed here is
corporate<br>
governance.
While a number
of lawyers in
the community
have a<br>
reasonable
working
knowledge of
the area, at
least in their<br>
home
jurisdictions,
I don't
believe there
are any who
would<br>
say
that this is
their primary
focus and
expertise --
at least<br>
none
who identified
themselves to
either WG.
The second
core<br>
competency
required,
especially in
the CCWG, is
non-profit<br>
law.
Again there
are a number
of lawyers
with a decent
working<br>
knowledge
of this fairly
broad field,
but not as a
primary<br>
focus.
There may be a
couple of
lawyers in the
community who<br>
would
claim this
fairly broad
field as a
primary focus
and<br>
expertise
-- but none
who became
involved with
either WG. <br>
This
then becomes
further
narrowed by
jurisdiction.
Since<br>
ICANN
is a
California
non-profit
corporation,
US corporate<br>
governance
and non-profit
experience is
more relevant
than<br>
experience
from other
jurisdictions,
and California
law<br>
corporate
governance and
non-profit
experience is
more<br>
relevant
than that from
other US
jurisdictions.
In my<br>
experience,
the more a US
lawyer focuses
on a
particular<br>
substantive
area, the
greater their
knowledge of
and comfort<br>
with
state law
issues in US
state
jurisdictions
other than<br>
their
own (e.g.,
someone who
spend a
majority of
their time<br>
working
in corporate
governance
will have a
greater
knowledge<br>
of the
law, issues,
approaches and
trends outside
their<br>
primary
state of
practice,
while someone
who spends a<br>
relatively
small amount
of time in the
area will tend
to feel<br>
less
comfortable
outside their
home
jurisdiction).
(An<br>
exception
is that many
US lawyers
have specific
knowledge of<br>
certain
Delaware
corporate law
issues,
because
Delaware often<br>
serves
as the state
of
incorporation
for entities
operating<br>
elsewhere.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Second,
lawyers in the
community will
seldom be seen
as<br>
neutral
advisors, no
matter how
hard they
try. They
will tend<br>
to be
seen as
working from
their point of
view or
stakeholder<br>
group
or "special
interest" or
desired
outcome, even
if they<br>
are
trying to be
even-handed.
Over the
course of
time, this<br>
balancing
act would tend
to become more
untenable.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Third,
the amount of
time it would
take to
provide truly<br>
definitive
legal advice
(research,
careful
drafting,<br>
discussions
with relevant
"clients",
etc.) would be<br>
prohibitive,
even compared
to the
substantial
amount of time<br>
it
takes to
provide
reasonably
well-informed
and competent<br>
legal-based
viewpoints in
the course of
either WG's
work.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Fourth,
in order to
formally
counsel the
community, the
lawyer<br>
or
lawyers in
question would
have to enter
into a formal<br>
attorney-client
relationship.
Under US law,
an<br>
attorney-client
relationship
may
inadvertently
be created by<br>
the
attorney's
actions, so
attorneys try
to be careful
about<br>
not
providing
formal legal
advice without
a formal
engagement<br>
(sometimes
providing an
explicit
"caveat" if
they feel they<br>
might
be getting too
close to
providing
legal
advice). If
the<br>
attorney
is employed by
a corporation,
they would
likely be<br>
unable
to take on
such a
representation
due to the
terms of<br>
their
employment,
and that is
before getting
to an
exploration<br>
of
conflict of
interest
issues. If
the attorney
is employed<br>
by a
firm, the firm
would have to
sign off on
the<br>
representation,
again dealing
with potential
conflict
issues.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Fifth,
even if the
above issues
were all
somehow
resolved, it<br>
would
be highly
unlikely that
any such
attorney would
provide<br>
substantial
amounts of
advice,
written memos,
counseling,
etc.<br>
on a
pro bono
(unpaid)
basis,
especially
given the<br>
time-consuming
nature of the
work. Pro
bono advice
and<br>
representation
is generally
accorded to
individuals
and<br>
entities
that could not
otherwise be
able to pay
for it. That<br>
is
clearly not
the case here,
at least with
ICANN taking<br>
financial
responsibility.
It would
likely be very
difficult<br>
to
justify this
to, e.g., a
firm's pro
bono
committee, as
a<br>
valid
pro bono
representation.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sixth,
if ICANN were
not taking the
role they are
taking, it<br>
would
be extremely
difficult to
identify the
"client" in
this<br>
situation.
The
"community"
is a
collection of
sectors,<br>
mostly
represented by
various
ICANN-created
structures,
which<br>
in turn
have members
of widely
varying types
(individuals,<br>
corporations,
sovereigns,
non-profits,
IGOs,
partnerships,<br>
etc.).
This would
also make it
extremely
difficult to
enter<br>
into a
formal
counseling
relationship
with the
"community."<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Seventh,
this is a
sensitive,
high-profile,
transformative
set<br>
of
actions we are
involved in,
which is
subject to an<br>
extraordinary
amount of
scrutiny, not
least that of
the NTIA<br>
and the
US Congress.
That
eliminates any
possibility of<br>
providing
informal,
off-the-cuff,
reasonably
well-informed
but<br>
not
quite expert,
"non-advice"
advice --
which might
happen in<br>
a more
obscure
exercise.
There's simply
too much at
stake.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally,
I would say
that a number
of attorneys
involved in<br>
one or
both of the
WGs are in
fact providing
a significant<br>
amount
of legal
knowledge and
experience to
the WGs,
helping<br>
to
frame issues,
whether in
terms of
general
leadership
(e.g.,<br>
Thomas,
Leon, Becky)
or more
specifically
in a<br>
"lawyer-as-client"
capacity --
working with
outside
counsel,<br>
tackling
the more
legalistic
issues,
providing as
much legal<br>
background
and knowledge
as possible
without
providing the<br>
type of
formal legal
advice that
would tend to
create an<br>
attorney-client
relationship,
etc. So I do
think that
many<br>
lawyers
in the
community are
giving greatly
of themselves
in<br>
this
process, even
though they
cannot and
would not be
able to<br>
formally
be engaged by
the community
as its
"counsel of
record."<span> </span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In sum,
it might be a
nice thought
in theory, but
it is no way<br>
a
practical
possibility.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat,
Jul 4, 2015 at
3:08 AM, CW
Lists<br>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a></a><br>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a></a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Good
morning:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I
had decided
not to enter
this debate.
But I am bound
to<br>
say
that the
thought had
occurred to me
at the time,
that<br>
there
were more than
enough
qualified
lawyers in
this<br>
community
that they
could
perfectly well
have
counselled …<br>
themselves.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
CW<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On
04 Jul 2015,
at 08:41, Greg
Shatan<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><span> </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a></a>>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolfgang,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To
your first
point, the
billing rates
were clearly<br>
stated
in the law
firms'
engagement
letters. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To
your second
point, I'm
sure we could
all think of<br>
other
projects and
goals where
the money
could have<br>
been
"better
spent."
You've stated
yours. But
that<br>
is
not the proper
test. This
was and
continues to
be<br>
money
we need to
spend to
achieve the
goals we have<br>
set.
Under
different
circumstances,
perhaps it
would<br>
be
a different
amount (or
maybe none at
all). But it<br>
was
strongly felt
at the outset
that the group
needed<br>
to
have
independent
counsel.
Clearly that
counsel<br>
needed
to have
recognized
expertise in
the
appropriate<br>
legal
areas. As
such, I
believe we
made excellent<br>
choices
and have been
very well
represented.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As
to your
"better spent"
test, I just
had to have<br>
$4000.00
worth of
emergency
dental work
done. This<br>
money
definitely
could have
been "better
spent" on a<br>
nice
vacation,
redecorating
our living
room or on<br>
donations
to my favored
charitable
causes. But I
had<br>
no
choice, other
than to choose
which dentist
and<br>
endodontist
I went to, and
I wasn't going
to cut<br>
corners
-- the dental
work was a
necessity.<span> </span><br>
Similarly,
the legal work
we are getting
is a<br>
necessity
and whether we
would have
preferred to
spend<br>
the
money
elsewhere is
not merely
irrelevant, it
is an<br>
incorrect
and
inappropriate
proposition.
Many of us<br>
are
investing vast
quantities of
time that
could be<br>
"better
spent"
elsewhere as
well, but we
are willing<br>
(grudgingly
sometimes) to
spend the time
it takes to<br>
get
it right,
because we
believe it
needs to be
done.<span> </span><br>
This
is the
appropriate
measure,
whether it
comes to<br>
our
time or
counsels'
time. If we
believe in
this<br>
project,
we have to
invest in it,
and do what it
takes<br>
to
succeed. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Of
course, this
investment has
to be managed
wisely<br>
and
cost-effectively,
and by and
large, I
believe the<br>
CCWG
has done that
reasonably
well -- not
perfectly,<br>
but
reasonably
well and with
"course
corrections"<br>
along
the way
intended to
improve that
management.<span> </span><br>
It's
certainly fair
to ask, as
Robin has
done, for a<br>
better
understanding
of that
management as
we go<br>
along.
But asserting
that the money
could have
been<br>
"better
spent"
elsewhere sets
up a false
test that we<br>
should
not use to
evaluate this
important
aspect of<br>
our
work.
Instead, we
need to focus
on whether the<br>
money
was "well
spent" on
these critical
legal<br>
services.
If you have
reason to
believe it was
not,<br>
that
could be
useful to
know. That
would at least
be<br>
the
right
discussion to
have.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Greg
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On
Sat, Jul 4,
2015 at 1:13
AM,
"Kleinwächter,<br>
Wolfgang"<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"
target="_blank">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a><br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"
target="_blank">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
HI,<br>
<br>
and
please if you
ask outside
lawyers, ask
for the<br>
price
tag in
advance. Some
of the money
spend fo<br>
lawyers
could have
been spend
better to
suppport<br>
and
enable
Internet user
and
non-commercial
groups<br>
in
developing
countries.<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----<br>
Von:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
im
Auftrag von
Robin Gross<br>
Gesendet:
Fr 03.07.2015
14:57<br>
An:<span> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"
target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
Community<br>
Betreff:
[CCWG-ACCT]
Who is
managing the
lawyers<br>
and
what have they
beenasked to
do?<br>
<br>
<br>
After
the legal
sub-team was
disbanded, I
haven't<br>
been
able to follow
what
communications
are<br>
happening
with CCWG and
the
independent
lawyers we<br>
retained.<br>
<br>
I
understand the
lawyers are
currently
"working on<br>
the
various
models" and
will present
something to<br>
us
regarding that
work soon.
However, *what<br>
exactly*
have the
lawyers been
asked to do
and<br>
*who*
asked them?
If there are
written<br>
instructions,
may the group
please see
them? Who<br>
is
now taking on
the role of
managing the
outside<br>
attorneys
for this
group,
including
providing<br>
instructions
and certifying
legal work?<br>
<br>
Sorry,
but I'm really
trying to
understand
what is<br>
happening,
and there
doesn't seem
to be much<br>
information
in the public
on this (or if
there is,<br>
I
can't find
it). Thanks
for any
information<br>
anyone
can provide.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Robin<br>
<br>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community
mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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<a
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Jordan
Carter<br>
<br>
Chief Executive <br>
<b>InternetNZ</b><br>
<br>
04 495 2118 (office) |
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64
21 442 649</a> (mob)<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a></a>
<br>
Skype: jordancarter<br>
<br>
<i>A better world
through a better
Internet </i><br>
<br>
</div>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org"
target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
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href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing
list<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<font color="#888888">
<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif">
<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<br
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal
University Oye-Ekiti<br
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">web:
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br>
</i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://goog_1872880453"
target="_blank"> </a><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></a></span></i><br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The key to
understanding is humility - my view !<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Matthew Shears
Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
+ 44 (0)771 247 2987</pre>
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