<div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Firstly I think facts speak for themselves, but it is our understanding of them - including how they change through the accumulation of further facts - that changes over time. And I am not a scientist. Nor a lawyer :-)</div><div><br></div><div>On Avri's broad point, it does summon up a nub of the debate. I reiterate for the record that my concern with ICANN's post-transition reality is that power is concentrated from the status quo (NTIA - Board, with community advice) into a newly powerful and concentrated single entity - the ICANN Board.</div><div><br></div><div>The purpose of a membership or designator model is to distribute power into the global multistakeholder community, as organised through the SO/AC structure, which is how ICANN organises the various stakeholders with interests in the DNS.</div><div><br></div><div>There's no claim of perfection in such a model. Quite the opposite. The whole point of a distribution of power is to share accountability and responsibility more broadly.</div><div><br></div><div>The "voluntary" model concentrates power in one place to an unhealthy degree. It is difficult for me to understand how anyone could accept a clear worsening of accountability and concentration of power that it represents, compared with the status quo.</div><div><br></div><div>Seems to me the sole difference between members and designators comes down to how strong you want the authority of the community to be. Neither represents "total" power: there is no abrogation in either of the Board's responsibility to govern ICANN consistent with its limited mission and consistent with the global public interest. </div><div><br></div><div>All that either offers is an acknowledgement that authority in the DNS community should lie with stakeholders. Organised through the SOs and ACs.</div><div><br></div><div>That's the same as where authority in the RIR community lies.</div><div><br></div><div>As I understand it, it is also pretty similar to where authority in the protocols community lies.</div><div><br></div><div>It isn't clear to me why the names community would settle for a less reliable and reputable model.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Anyhow, much fodder for thought as we come to Paris. I think we have to acknowledge that the differences here are of degree, except in regards to the voluntary model. That one stands on its own as a unique reallocation of authority into a single place in a manner that would create serious risks for all of us in assuring the stability and security of the DNS.</div><div><br></div><div>best</div><div>Jordan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 7 July 2015 at 23:52, Avri Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
To start, I believe that facts are just things that people believe to<br>
be the case. I try not to speak of anything stronger that a belief.<br>
Both my personal history and world history, even history of science -<br>
that bastion of fact, shows me that yesterday's Fact is often just a<br>
matter of prejudice, superstition and point of view.<br>
<br>
In terms of the accountability problem with the membership model, it has<br>
been discussed before. Fairly extensively. Some of the gaps such as<br>
those exposed by the UA have been eliminated, but others have not. Some<br>
involve the degree to which the various SOAC are really the solid<br>
organizations we portray. As I wrote in an earlier message where i<br>
spoke of the SOAC themselves:<br>
> Having been a member or observer of many of these entities I have fond<br>
> that they are often disorganized, ruled by a few strong personalities in<br>
> a sea of apathy, and given to making up rules on the fly when needed.<br>
> They do not even necessarily follow the rules they have agreed to in the<br>
> charters, though some do, not all of them. And for the most part, though<br>
> they are supposed to transparent, most aren't.<br>
<br>
Are these structures really fit of unchecked rule? How can we show that?<br>
<br>
For me the primary deficit is the loss of checks and balances.<br>
<br>
The current system relies on a set of checks and balances between the<br>
Board and the rest of the community. The current problem is that the<br>
power of the rest of the community seem too weak to many, allowing the<br>
Board to seemingly work without any checks on its activities.<br>
<br>
By strengthening the community in the designator model, we strengthen<br>
the set of checks and balance between the Board and the rest of the<br>
community. By doing so, we increase accountability.<br>
<br>
There is a reciprocity in this notion of accountability, one that does<br>
not require external oversight. We vote them in, can appeal the board<br>
in a serious manner and will even be able to vote them out by some yet<br>
to be determined procedure. And the Board, can review the degree to<br>
which the stakeholder groups are fulfilling their mandate to represent<br>
the larger community within the ICANN mission. In a sense there is<br>
mutual reciprocal oversight. The Board and the rest of the community<br>
check each other and establish a functional balance. Most of the this<br>
CCWG's activities are working on the details of these check and balances.<br>
<br>
That is other than the grand reorganization of ICANN into a membership<br>
organization. Something that leaves the current check and balances<br>
behind and attempts to create a major new structure.<br>
<br>
In the designator model the Board can make decisions and we can appeal<br>
them. And we make recommendations and give advise the Board needs to<br>
give it serious consideration on penalty of appeal. In extreme case they<br>
can be removed from their duties and we can be subjected to discussions<br>
of reorganization.<br>
<br>
Going to the membership model eliminates this balance by giving the<br>
putative community representatives supreme power. How can that power be<br>
appealed? Can membership decisions be appealed, by whom and to whom?<br>
Who determines whether the ACSO are adequately representing the global<br>
community and living up to their obligations under the bylaws?<br>
Membership turns the Board into an administrative unit without<br>
sufficient power to act as a check or balance to the ACSOs.<br>
<br>
Eliminating any checks and balances on the ACSO from the accountability<br>
equation seems to be a critical failure to me in the creation of a new<br>
accountability regime. Perhaps if we were going with the individual<br>
membership option a degree of accountability to global members could be<br>
argued, not sure. But I believe that is not what we are working on as<br>
that would involve even greater difficulty to get right. We are not even<br>
working on a model where organizations that exist on their own come<br>
together to form a group. Our ACSO are artificial organizations created<br>
by and within ICANN. Our multistakeholder model depends on the<br>
interaction and interplay of these organization with the Board and on<br>
the checks and balances between them.<br>
<br>
Perhaps you have 'fact based' responses to all the possible<br>
accountability questions that NTIA might ask us about this new power<br>
structure you favor. I do not believe that you can show how the ACSO<br>
will be responsible to the global Internet community. I do not believe<br>
you can show how a rogue set of ACSO can be stopped from doing things<br>
that harm the organizations or the Internet without allowing the Board<br>
some degree of decision making based on the confluence of<br>
recommendations and advice received from the various ACSO and the<br>
greater community.<br>
<br>
As was stated in the call by NTIA, it was up to us to show how anything<br>
new we created could be held accountable. As far as I can tell in<br>
membership there is no way to hold the members accountable. In the<br>
designator model we show how we are adding accountability measures. In<br>
the membership model we require the ACSO to verify their own<br>
representativity, but I have seen no expression of how they can do that<br>
or show that it is the case. When I speak of having a "much higher<br>
threshold" in proving ACSO accountabilty to the global public interest,<br>
this is what I mean. How are you going to prove, as you say - with the<br>
facts that you believe in, that the membership model is more accountable<br>
given its unassailable postion in a membership organization.<br>
<br>
I have seen no evidence of membership creating greater accountability to<br>
the global public interest. I cannot state that I believe it is<br>
impossible for it to do so, just that I have seen no evidence of it.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 06-Jul-15 21:01, Edward Morris wrote:<br>
> Hello Avri,<br>
><br>
><br>
> I believe membership raises the issues of accountability to the full<br>
> diversity of stakeholders to a much higher threshold, including the<br>
> issue of the degree to which ICANN is accountable to stakeholders not<br>
> included among our SG/C/RALO/ALS / as well as among parrticpating CCs<br>
> and govts.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Please, if possible, raise your concerns stating fact rather than<br>
> belief. Maybe there is something I have missed. There is absolutely no<br>
> difference in the openness to non ICANN stakeholders between the<br>
> empowered membership and empowered designator models. At least I don't<br>
> see any. Both are based upon the current SOAC's. If there is a<br>
> difference in this area I need to and want to be educated. Please<br>
> respond with specific and detailed instances or examples of why what<br>
> you claim is true is. Vague generalities are not particularly helpful.<br>
> Again, I am open to be educated and persuaded but with substantive<br>
> fact rather than vague as yet unsubstantiated beliefs.<br>
><br>
> No model is as open to non SOAC's as is Malcolm's proposal for<br>
> individual membership. That, again, is a membership model. Do you<br>
> support this open membership model and if not why not? Would you<br>
> prefer other models to be looked at that are not based upon the<br>
> SOAC's? I think that would be a very reasonable position and one I<br>
> certainly am open to supporting if a workable model would be proposed.<br>
> As yet I have not seen one. Have you? Should we try to find one?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I think enough of the comments bring out questions of<br>
> accountability in<br>
> a mebership organization to make the membership option less than<br>
> optimal.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> What comments are you referring to? Certainly not the public comments<br>
> which were basically supportive of membership. Are these comments you<br>
> refer to based upon vague generalities or specific problems? If there<br>
> are specific problems what specifically are they? Should we not<br>
> determine whether there are solutions to those problems rather than<br>
> just dismissing the model outright? If not, what are your views as to<br>
> the ultimate apparent unenforceability of the designator model in<br>
> certain areas? Do you disagree with Paul Rosenzweig when he states<br>
> that "a direct community veto of budget and strategic plan remains<br>
> essential to accountability"? If not, what do you propose to do in<br>
> these areas without membership. Should we simply forget them?<br>
><br>
> I do think there may be another option or two out there and hopefully<br>
> working with our counsel we'll find them.<br>
><br>
> In the interim, I really am looking to be educated. No one has taught<br>
> me more about ICANN since I became involved in it than you Avri. I'm<br>
> just not easily persuadable by vague opinions, I'm a fact based sort<br>
> of guy. As this process has moved forward I've seen your views and<br>
> positions change. To me, that is an admirable sign of someone truly<br>
> looking for an optimal answer rather than one who is clinging to a<br>
> defined position. I'm just having some trouble understanding,<br>
> factually, the specific objections you are now raising about<br>
> membership. I hope you can help me understand so I can better test and<br>
> evaluate my own views..<br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
><br>
> Ed<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 06-Jul-15 19:05, Edward Morris wrote:<br>
> > +1. Well said.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Jonathan Zuck<br>
> <<a href="mailto:JZuck@actonline.org">JZuck@actonline.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:JZuck@actonline.org">JZuck@actonline.org</a>><br>
</div></div><span class="">> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:JZuck@actonline.org">JZuck@actonline.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:JZuck@actonline.org">JZuck@actonline.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hmm. I think it’s important to bear in mind that there was<br>
> > overwhelming consensus among the public comments to support the<br>
> > membership model. The detractors from the model, while important<br>
> > and perhaps critical, are not in the majority. I’m not sure this<br>
> > process speaks to how we better use counsel as much as how we<br>
> > achieve consensus on principles.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *From:*<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>><br>
</span>> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>>] *On<br>
> > Behalf Of *Seun Ojedeji<br>
> > *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 3:50 PM<br>
> > *To:* Becky Burr<br>
> > *Cc:* <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and what<br>
> > have they beenasked to do?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Hi Becky,<br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks for asking, item 3 is actually in connection to the fact<br>
> > that such veto may not be possible without item 1(as I<br>
> understood<br>
> > it) and that is why I said an indirect veto can happen not<br>
> that I<br>
> > was entirely suggesting that those powers be off the table.<br>
> ><br>
> > It seem however that folks are only looking at the powers<br>
> and not<br>
> > at what it will take to have them.<br>
> ><br>
> > By the way, I also did put in a reservation that we may not<br>
> > necessarily agree with those views but my concern is mainly that<br>
> > the ccwg does not spend so much time developing proposals<br>
> that we<br>
> > know has certain implementation requirements that are not<br>
> > compatible with the ICANN community structure. I think we should<br>
> > learn from the the past (based on comments from the last PC) and<br>
> > utilize legal council and volunteer hours more effectively.<br>
> ><br>
> > FWIW speaking as participant.<br>
> ><br>
> > Regards<br>
> ><br>
> > On 6 Jul 2015 8:08 pm, "Burr, Becky" <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>><br>
</div></div>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Seun,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I am not sure why we would take direct budget/strat plan<br>
> veto<br>
> > off the table. Could you explain? Thanks.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Becky<br>
> ><br>
> > J. Beckwith Burr<br>
> ><br>
> > *Neustar, Inc. /* Deputy General Counsel and Chief<br>
> Privacy Officer<br>
> ><br>
> > 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006<br>
> ><br>
> > Office: <a href="tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932" value="+12025332932">+ 1.202.533.2932</a> <tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932><br>
> <tel:%2B%201.202.533.2932> Mobile:<br>
> > +1.202.352.6367 <tel:%2B1.202.352.6367><br>
> > <tel:%2B1.202.352.6367> / <a href="mailto:becky.burr@neustar.biz">becky.burr@neustar.biz</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:becky.burr@neustar.biz">becky.burr@neustar.biz</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:becky.burr@neustar.biz">becky.burr@neustar.biz</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:becky.burr@neustar.biz">becky.burr@neustar.biz</a>>> / <a href="http://www.neustar.biz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.neustar.biz</a><br>
> <<a href="http://www.neustar.biz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.neustar.biz</a>><br>
> > <<a href="http://www.neustar.biz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.neustar.biz</a>><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *From: *Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>>><br>
> > *Date: *Monday, July 6, 2015 at 11:09 AM<br>
> > *To: *Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>>><br>
<span class="">> > *Cc: *Accountability Community<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>>><br>
> > *Subject: *Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the lawyers and<br>
> > what have they beenasked to do?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > I have no problem with having a new proposal presented.<br>
> > However it is important that there some adherence to basic<br>
> > principles on proposals that the ccwg would not want to<br>
> > explore. Three areas comes to mind:<br>
> ><br>
> > - Its my understanding that anything that will turn some/all<br>
> > of the SO/AC to members and thereby exposing them to legal<br>
> > challenge is not acceptable<br>
> ><br>
> > - Its my understanding that anything that allows removal of<br>
> > individual board member without the approval of the<br>
> entire(or<br>
> > larger part) of the community is not acceptable<br>
> ><br>
> > - Its my understanding that a solution that allows direct<br>
> > community veto on certain elements like budget,<br>
> strategic plan<br>
> > et all is not acceptable but an indirect enforcement<br>
> could be<br>
> > considered (i.e using a power to get another power executed<br>
> > indirectly)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Some/none of the above may be acceptable by us, but my point<br>
> > is that there should be some focus going forward, especially<br>
> > if the target of ICANN54 is to be meet<br>
> ><br>
> > Regards<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Robin Gross<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br>
</div></div><span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I would also like to hear what they propose at this<br>
> > stage. I really don't see how it could hurt to have<br>
> > another proposal to consider. Larry Strickling did<br>
> say he<br>
> > wanted us to be sure we examined all the options<br>
> carefully.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks,<br>
> ><br>
> > Robin<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Jul 6, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I agree. We should have the benefit of their<br>
> thoughts.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Greg<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Jordan Carter<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, I would really really like to see what the<br>
> > creative thinking they have done has<br>
> suggested. I<br>
> > trust our ability as a group to make decisions,<br>
> > and do not believe we should cut off input from<br>
> > any direction...<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Jordan<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 7 July 2015 at 01:13, James Gannon<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>><br>
</span>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a><br>
<div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hey Avri,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Yes the 3rd model was brought up, and the<br>
> > lawyers feel that it might be a cleaner way<br>
> > for us to get the powers that we need.<br>
> ><br>
> > But without a call from the CCWG to<br>
> present it<br>
> > they feel that its not their position to<br>
> > propose a model on their own initiative.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Personally i would like to see what they<br>
> have<br>
> > come up with but the CCWG would need to<br>
> ask as<br>
> > an overall group for the chairs to<br>
> direct them<br>
> > to give some more information on the<br>
> model if<br>
> > we wanted it.<br>
> ><br>
> > I think if after we hear from them on<br>
> Tuesdays<br>
> > call we still feel we might have some<br>
> > shortcomings that it might be the time<br>
> to ask<br>
> > them about the 3rd option.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Also +1 I think they are really enjoying the<br>
> > work and are finding themselves getting more<br>
> > and more involved as we go on, which is<br>
> great<br>
> > for the CCWG as the more background and<br>
> > details they know the better that are<br>
> able to<br>
> > give us solid well reasoned advice in my<br>
> opinion.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > -James<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 6 Jul 2015, at 13:19, Avri Doria<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
</div></div><div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > I have not had a chance to get back<br>
> to the<br>
> > recording of the call. Not<br>
> > sure I will, that time was the time<br>
> I had<br>
> > for that call and that is why<br>
> > i was listening then.<br>
> ><br>
> > In any case, the lawyers were talking<br>
> > about a new model they had come up<br>
> > with, but not knowing what to do<br>
> about it<br>
> > since they had not been asked<br>
> > for a new model.<br>
> ><br>
> > I was told to leave before I got to hear<br>
> > the end of that story. Or about<br>
> > the model itself. Anyone who has had a<br>
> > chance to listen, whatever happened?<br>
> ><br>
> > avri<br>
> ><br>
> > ps. sometimes i think the lawyers are<br>
> > getting interested in what we are<br>
> > doing, almost like stakeholders. not<br>
> that<br>
> > i expect them to give up their<br>
> > hourly rates because they are<br>
> stakeholders.<br>
> ><br>
> > On 06-Jul-15 05:07, James Gannon wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I listened to the last co-chairs<br>
> > lawyers’ call at;<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53782602</a><br>
> ><br>
> <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_pages_viewpage.action-3FpageId-3D53782602&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=rX8zWSdUbF0XJ6RQyX5HABE7NaQIgAXHj6WfvEXkLh8&s=5REzt6Gk0Mt5evnhe_F8O87Kpc4hX8wql7vP--WYsnQ&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_pages_viewpage.action-3FpageId-3D53782602&d=AwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=rX8zWSdUbF0XJ6RQyX5HABE7NaQIgAXHj6WfvEXkLh8&s=5REzt6Gk0Mt5evnhe_F8O87Kpc4hX8wql7vP--WYsnQ&e=</a>><br>
> > (I’m a glutton for punishment)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > It was a short call and I’ll make a<br>
> > particular note that Leon and<br>
> > Mathieu made a point of not<br>
> making any<br>
> > decisions on behalf of the<br>
> > whole group and made it clear<br>
> anything<br>
> > requiring a decision must be<br>
> > made by the overall CCWG, so I was<br>
> > happy with that side of things<br>
> > myself, most of my own fears<br>
> about not<br>
> > having a sub-group are somewhat<br>
> > assuaged.<br>
> ><br>
> > So my paraphrasing and overview is:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > · Lawyers working hard<br>
> on the<br>
> > models for us collaboratively<br>
> > between the two firms since BA<br>
> ><br>
> > · Lawyers are prepping a<br>
> > presentation to give to us ASAP<br>
> > before Paris if possible, that<br>
> > presentation will take the<br>
> majority of<br>
> > a call, it can’t be done<br>
> quickly, they<br>
> > need about 45mins uninterrupted<br>
> > to go through the presentation and<br>
> > then would likely need Q&A time<br>
> > after they present.<br>
> ><br>
> > · Some small<br>
> > wording/clarifications to come<br>
> back to<br>
> > the CCWG<br>
> > to make sure everyone’s on the<br>
> same page<br>
> ><br>
> > · Everyone feels Paris<br>
> will be<br>
> > an important time for the<br>
> > models, lawyers will be ready for a<br>
> > grilling on the details of the<br>
> > models from us to flesh out any<br>
> of our<br>
> > concerns/questions<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Note that the above is all my very<br>
> > condensed overview of the<br>
> > conversations.<br>
> ><br>
> > It seemed like a productive call<br>
> to me.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > -James<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> *From:*<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>><br>
> ><br>
</div></div>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>>]<br>
> > *On Behalf<br>
> > Of *Greg Shatan<br>
> > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2015<br>
> 5:33 AM<br>
> > *To:* Carlos Raul<br>
> > *Cc:*<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Who is<br>
> > managing the lawyers and what have<br>
> > they beenasked to do?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Carlos,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > As the legal sub-team was disbanded,<br>
> > your guess is as good as mine.....<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Greg<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:27 AM,<br>
> > Carlos Raul<br>
> <<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a>>><br>
<span class="">> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com">carlosraulg@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Thank you Greg!<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > It makes a lot of sense and I<br>
> guess<br>
> > those are all good reasons as<br>
> > we hired them in the first place.<br>
> > What are the next steps now?<br>
> > What happened in the recent call?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Best regards<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="tel:%2B506%208837%207176" value="+50688377176">+506 8837 7176</a><br>
> <tel:%2B506%208837%207176><br>
> > <tel:%2B506%208837%207176><br>
> > <tel:%2B506%208837%207176><br>
> ><br>
> > Skype carlos.raulg<br>
> ><br>
> > _________<br>
> ><br>
> > Apartado 1571-1000<br>
> ><br>
> > *COSTA RICA*<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:02 AM,<br>
> > Greg Shatan<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
<div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Chris,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > That was tried to some<br>
> extent,<br>
> > at least in the CWG.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > There are several substantial<br>
> > problems with that approach.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > First, lawyers are not<br>
> > fungible. The particular legal<br>
> skills,<br>
> > background and experience<br>
> > required for the issues before both<br>
> > WGs are fairly specific,<br>
> and in<br>
> > some cases, very specific.<br>
> > The primary core competency<br>
> > needed here is corporate<br>
> > governance. While a<br>
> number of<br>
> > lawyers in the community have a<br>
> > reasonable working<br>
> knowledge of<br>
> > the area, at least in their<br>
> > home jurisdictions, I don't<br>
> > believe there are any who would<br>
> > say that this is their<br>
> primary<br>
> > focus and expertise -- at least<br>
> > none who identified<br>
> themselves<br>
> > to either WG. The second core<br>
> > competency required,<br>
> especially<br>
> > in the CCWG, is non-profit<br>
> > law. Again there are a number<br>
> > of lawyers with a decent working<br>
> > knowledge of this fairly<br>
> broad<br>
> > field, but not as a primary<br>
> > focus. There may be a couple<br>
> > of lawyers in the community who<br>
> > would claim this fairly broad<br>
> > field as a primary focus and<br>
> > expertise -- but none who<br>
> > became involved with either WG.<br>
> > This then becomes further<br>
> > narrowed by jurisdiction. Since<br>
> > ICANN is a California<br>
> > non-profit corporation, US corporate<br>
> > governance and non-profit<br>
> > experience is more relevant than<br>
> > experience from other<br>
> > jurisdictions, and California law<br>
> > corporate governance and<br>
> > non-profit experience is more<br>
> > relevant than that from other<br>
> > US jurisdictions. In my<br>
> > experience, the more a US<br>
> > lawyer focuses on a particular<br>
> > substantive area, the greater<br>
> > their knowledge of and comfort<br>
> > with state law issues in US<br>
> > state jurisdictions other than<br>
> > their own (e.g., someone who<br>
> > spend a majority of their time<br>
> > working in corporate<br>
> governance<br>
> > will have a greater knowledge<br>
> > of the law, issues,<br>
> approaches<br>
> > and trends outside their<br>
> > primary state of practice,<br>
> > while someone who spends a<br>
> > relatively small amount<br>
> of time<br>
> > in the area will tend to feel<br>
> > less comfortable outside<br>
> their<br>
> > home jurisdiction). (An<br>
> > exception is that many US<br>
> > lawyers have specific knowledge of<br>
> > certain Delaware<br>
> corporate law<br>
> > issues, because Delaware often<br>
> > serves as the state of<br>
> > incorporation for entities operating<br>
> > elsewhere.)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Second, lawyers in the<br>
> > community will seldom be seen as<br>
> > neutral advisors, no<br>
> matter how<br>
> > hard they try. They will tend<br>
> > to be seen as working from<br>
> > their point of view or stakeholder<br>
> > group or "special<br>
> interest" or<br>
> > desired outcome, even if they<br>
> > are trying to be even-handed.<br>
> > Over the course of time, this<br>
> > balancing act would tend to<br>
> > become more untenable.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Third, the amount of time it<br>
> > would take to provide truly<br>
> > definitive legal advice<br>
> > (research, careful drafting,<br>
> > discussions with relevant<br>
> > "clients", etc.) would be<br>
> > prohibitive, even compared to<br>
> > the substantial amount of time<br>
> > it takes to provide<br>
> reasonably<br>
> > well-informed and competent<br>
> > legal-based viewpoints in the<br>
> > course of either WG's work.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Fourth, in order to formally<br>
> > counsel the community, the lawyer<br>
> > or lawyers in question would<br>
> > have to enter into a formal<br>
> > attorney-client relationship.<br>
> > Under US law, an<br>
> > attorney-client relationship<br>
> > may inadvertently be created by<br>
> > the attorney's actions, so<br>
> > attorneys try to be careful about<br>
> > not providing formal legal<br>
> > advice without a formal engagement<br>
> > (sometimes providing an<br>
> > explicit "caveat" if they feel they<br>
> > might be getting too close to<br>
> > providing legal advice). If the<br>
> > attorney is employed by a<br>
> > corporation, they would likely be<br>
> > unable to take on such a<br>
> > representation due to the terms of<br>
> > their employment, and that is<br>
> > before getting to an exploration<br>
> > of conflict of interest<br>
> > issues. If the attorney is employed<br>
> > by a firm, the firm would<br>
> have<br>
> > to sign off on the<br>
> > representation, again dealing<br>
> > with potential conflict issues.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Fifth, even if the above<br>
> issues<br>
> > were all somehow resolved, it<br>
> > would be highly unlikely that<br>
> > any such attorney would provide<br>
> > substantial amounts of<br>
> advice,<br>
> > written memos, counseling, etc.<br>
> > on a pro bono (unpaid) basis,<br>
> > especially given the<br>
> > time-consuming nature of the<br>
> > work. Pro bono advice and<br>
> > representation is generally<br>
> > accorded to individuals and<br>
> > entities that could not<br>
> > otherwise be able to pay for<br>
> it. That<br>
> > is clearly not the case here,<br>
> > at least with ICANN taking<br>
> > financial responsibility. It<br>
> > would likely be very difficult<br>
> > to justify this to, e.g., a<br>
> > firm's pro bono committee, as a<br>
> > valid pro bono<br>
> representation.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Sixth, if ICANN were not<br>
> taking<br>
> > the role they are taking, it<br>
> > would be extremely<br>
> difficult to<br>
> > identify the "client" in this<br>
> > situation. The<br>
> "community" is<br>
> > a collection of sectors,<br>
> > mostly represented by various<br>
> > ICANN-created structures, which<br>
> > in turn have members of<br>
> widely<br>
> > varying types (individuals,<br>
> > corporations, sovereigns,<br>
> > non-profits, IGOs, partnerships,<br>
> > etc.). This would also<br>
> make it<br>
> > extremely difficult to enter<br>
> > into a formal counseling<br>
> > relationship with the "community."<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Seventh, this is a sensitive,<br>
> > high-profile, transformative set<br>
> > of actions we are<br>
> involved in,<br>
> > which is subject to an<br>
> > extraordinary amount of<br>
> > scrutiny, not least that of the NTIA<br>
> > and the US Congress. That<br>
> > eliminates any possibility of<br>
> > providing informal,<br>
> > off-the-cuff, reasonably<br>
> well-informed but<br>
> > not quite expert,<br>
> "non-advice"<br>
> > advice -- which might happen in<br>
> > a more obscure exercise.<br>
> > There's simply too much at stake.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Finally, I would say that a<br>
> > number of attorneys involved in<br>
> > one or both of the WGs are in<br>
> > fact providing a significant<br>
> > amount of legal knowledge and<br>
> > experience to the WGs, helping<br>
> > to frame issues, whether in<br>
> > terms of general leadership (e.g.,<br>
> > Thomas, Leon, Becky) or more<br>
> > specifically in a<br>
> > "lawyer-as-client"<br>
> capacity --<br>
> > working with outside counsel,<br>
> > tackling the more legalistic<br>
> > issues, providing as much legal<br>
> > background and knowledge as<br>
> > possible without providing the<br>
> > type of formal legal advice<br>
> > that would tend to create an<br>
> > attorney-client relationship,<br>
> > etc. So I do think that many<br>
> > lawyers in the community are<br>
> > giving greatly of themselves in<br>
> > this process, even though<br>
> they<br>
> > cannot and would not be able to<br>
> > formally be engaged by the<br>
> > community as its "counsel of<br>
> record."<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > In sum, it might be a nice<br>
> > thought in theory, but it is no way<br>
> > a practical possibility.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Greg<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at<br>
> 3:08 AM,<br>
> > CW Lists<br>
> ><br>
> <<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><br>
</div></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>>><br>
<span class="">> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a>>>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Good morning:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I had decided not to<br>
> enter<br>
> > this debate. But I am bound to<br>
> > say that the thought had<br>
> > occurred to me at the time, that<br>
> > there were more than<br>
> enough<br>
> > qualified lawyers in this<br>
> > community that they could<br>
> > perfectly well have counselled …<br>
> > themselves.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > CW<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 04 Jul 2015, at 08:41,<br>
> > Greg Shatan<br>
> ><br>
> <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
<div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Wolfgang,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > To your first point,<br>
> > the billing rates were clearly<br>
> > stated in the law<br>
> > firms' engagement letters.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > To your second point,<br>
> > I'm sure we could all think of<br>
> > other projects and<br>
> > goals where the money could have<br>
> > been "better spent."<br>
> > You've stated yours. But that<br>
> > is not the proper<br>
> > test. This was and continues to be<br>
> > money we need to<br>
> spend<br>
> > to achieve the goals we have<br>
> > set. Under different<br>
> > circumstances, perhaps it would<br>
> > be a different amount<br>
> > (or maybe none at all). But it<br>
> > was strongly felt at<br>
> > the outset that the group needed<br>
> > to have independent<br>
> > counsel. Clearly that counsel<br>
> > needed to have<br>
> > recognized expertise in the<br>
> appropriate<br>
> > legal areas. As<br>
> such,<br>
> > I believe we made excellent<br>
> > choices and have been<br>
> > very well represented.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > As to your "better<br>
> > spent" test, I just had to have<br>
> > $4000.00 worth of<br>
> > emergency dental work done. This<br>
> > money definitely<br>
> could<br>
> > have been "better spent" on a<br>
> > nice vacation,<br>
> > redecorating our living room or on<br>
> > donations to my<br>
> favored<br>
> > charitable causes. But I had<br>
> > no choice, other than<br>
> > to choose which dentist and<br>
> > endodontist I<br>
> went to,<br>
> > and I wasn't going to cut<br>
> > corners -- the dental<br>
> > work was a necessity.<br>
> > Similarly, the legal<br>
> > work we are getting is a<br>
> > necessity and whether<br>
> > we would have preferred to spend<br>
> > the money<br>
> elsewhere is<br>
> > not merely irrelevant, it is an<br>
> > incorrect and<br>
> > inappropriate proposition. Many<br>
> of us<br>
> > are investing vast<br>
> > quantities of time that could be<br>
> > "better spent"<br>
> > elsewhere as well, but we are<br>
> willing<br>
> > (grudgingly<br>
> sometimes)<br>
> > to spend the time it takes to<br>
> > get it right, because<br>
> > we believe it needs to be done.<br>
> > This is the<br>
> appropriate<br>
> > measure, whether it comes to<br>
> > our time or counsels'<br>
> > time. If we believe in this<br>
> > project, we have to<br>
> > invest in it, and do what it takes<br>
> > to succeed.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Of course, this<br>
> > investment has to be managed wisely<br>
> > and cost-effectively,<br>
> > and by and large, I believe the<br>
> > CCWG has done that<br>
> > reasonably well -- not perfectly,<br>
> > but reasonably<br>
> well and<br>
> > with "course corrections"<br>
> > along the way<br>
> intended<br>
> > to improve that management.<br>
> > It's certainly<br>
> fair to<br>
> > ask, as Robin has done, for a<br>
> > better<br>
> understanding of<br>
> > that management as we go<br>
> > along. But asserting<br>
> > that the money could have been<br>
> > "better spent"<br>
> > elsewhere sets up a false test<br>
> that we<br>
> > should not use to<br>
> > evaluate this important aspect of<br>
> > our work.<br>
> Instead, we<br>
> > need to focus on whether the<br>
> > money was "well<br>
> spent"<br>
> > on these critical legal<br>
> > services. If you have<br>
> > reason to believe it was not,<br>
> > that could be<br>
> useful to<br>
> > know. That would at least be<br>
> > the right<br>
> discussion to<br>
> > have.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Greg<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Sat, Jul 4,<br>
> 2015 at<br>
> > 1:13 AM, "Kleinwächter,<br>
> > Wolfgang"<br>
> ><br>
> <<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a><br>
</div></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>>><br>
<span class="">> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>>>><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > HI,<br>
> ><br>
> > and please if you<br>
> > ask outside lawyers, ask for the<br>
> > price tag in<br>
> > advance. Some of the money spend fo<br>
> > lawyers could<br>
> have<br>
> > been spend better to suppport<br>
> > and enable<br>
> Internet<br>
> > user and non-commercial groups<br>
> > in developing<br>
> > countries.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Wolfgang<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> -----Ursprüngliche<br>
> > Nachricht-----<br>
> > Von:<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
</span><span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>><br>
</span><span class="">> > im Auftrag von<br>
> > Robin Gross<br>
> > Gesendet: Fr<br>
> > 03.07.2015 14:57<br>
> > An:<br>
> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
<div><div class="h5">> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
> > Community<br>
> > Betreff:<br>
> > [CCWG-ACCT] Who is managing the<br>
> lawyers<br>
> > and what have<br>
> they<br>
> > beenasked to do?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > After the legal<br>
> > sub-team was disbanded, I haven't<br>
> > been able to<br>
> follow<br>
> > what communications are<br>
> > happening<br>
> with CCWG<br>
> > and the independent lawyers we<br>
> > retained.<br>
> ><br>
> > I understand the<br>
> > lawyers are currently "working on<br>
> > the various<br>
> models"<br>
> > and will present something to<br>
> > us regarding that<br>
> > work soon. However, *what<br>
> > exactly* have the<br>
> > lawyers been asked to do and<br>
> > *who* asked them?<br>
> > If there are written<br>
> > instructions, may<br>
> > the group please see them? Who<br>
> > is now taking on<br>
> > the role of managing the outside<br>
> > attorneys for<br>
> this<br>
> > group, including providing<br>
> > instructions and<br>
> > certifying legal work?<br>
> ><br>
> > Sorry, but I'm<br>
> > really trying to understand what is<br>
> > happening, and<br>
> > there doesn't seem to be much<br>
> > information<br>
> in the<br>
> > public on this (or if there is,<br>
> > I can't find it).<br>
> > Thanks for any information<br>
> > anyone can<br>
> provide.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> > Robin<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ><br>
> Accountability-Cross-Community<br>
> > mailing list<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
</div></div>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>>><br>
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> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>>><br>
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> ><br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ><br>
> Accountability-Cross-Community<br>
> > mailing list<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
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> ><br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ><br>
> Accountability-Cross-Community<br>
> > mailing list<br>
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> ><br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> ><br>
> > Jordan Carter<br>
> ><br>
> > Chief Executive<br>
> > *InternetNZ*<br>
> ><br>
> > 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649<br>
> > <tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649> (mob)<br>
> > <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><br>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > /Seun Ojedeji,<br>
> > Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br>
> > web: //<a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
> ><br>
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> > //Mobile: +2348035233535 <tel:%2B2348035233535>//<br>
> > //alt <a href="mailto:email%3Aseun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng">email:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
</span>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:email%253Aseun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng">email%3Aseun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a>><br>
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<span class="">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a>>>/<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Jordan Carter<br><br>Chief Executive <br><b>InternetNZ</b><br><br>04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)<br><a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>Skype: jordancarter<br><br><i>A better world through a better Internet </i><br><br></div></div></div></div>
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