<div dir="ltr">Hi Nigel,<div><br></div><div>I'm in the U.K. and have raised the issue in the past, but only to suggest that because of this some SOAC's might want to consider the more complex formation of a PBC as an option going forward.</div><div><br></div><div>You are correct about the status of UA's in the UK (Scotland as well as England and Wales - different legal system, as you know). The same holds true in Finland, the country where I received the bulk of my legal education. Over time, though, in both countries the courts would eventually recognise the liability protection afforded by California law as a matter of comity. Long term, I don't see a problem. That said, I'm pretty sure that were I to want to sue someone involved in a SOAC in the UK for actions of the SOAC I'd be able to get through a Directions Hearing and force a trial upon the other party. That's why indemnification is particularly important if UA's are used going forward.</div><div><br></div><div>Might I also respectfully suggest that most of us are already part of UA's, albeit of the non registered variety. I would suspect I could make the case that the NCSG, NCUC and GNSO, all of which I'm active in, could currently be construed as UA's under British law and elsewhere and thus I could already be held liable for the actions of these organs. I don't see where any of the proposed structures would make my individual situation worse going forward.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ed Morris</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Nigel Roberts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">One of the leading authorites on this matter, and the real dangers of UA structures is the Gillingham Bus Disaster case (RE GILLINGHAM BUS DISASTER FUND [1958] Ch 300)<br>
<br>
<a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=s5h4LUHhYC0C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Gillingham+Bus+Disaster+appeal+judgment&source=bl&ots=rGrH81jGKn&sig=jCRoZq2-tiGTN7MUuzoteOS0oPw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r4KeVbjAHIT2UpHHi4AL&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Gillingham%20Bus%20Disaster%20appeal%20judgment&f=false" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://books.google.com/books?id=s5h4LUHhYC0C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Gillingham+Bus+Disaster+appeal+judgment&source=bl&ots=rGrH81jGKn&sig=jCRoZq2-tiGTN7MUuzoteOS0oPw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r4KeVbjAHIT2UpHHi4AL&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Gillingham%20Bus%20Disaster%20appeal%20judgment&f=false</a><br>
<br>
Happy reading.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/07/15 15:17, Nigel Roberts wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Unincorporated associations in English, and Scottish law explicitly have<br>
unlimited liability. There is no registration involved, they simply<br>
exist as a matter of law. So if you and I formed a bridge club at our<br>
local pub, and invited members, that would automatically be a UA, would<br>
NOT have legal personality, and the members, and more particularly, the<br>
officers, would have UNlimited liabtliy<br>
<br>
The assets of the UA are held on trust, in the legal name of the<br>
officers, for the purposes of the UA.<br>
<br>
I am assuming the difference here is that a California unincorporated<br>
assocation is not an unregistered entity but is a creature of statute<br>
(state law), giving limited liability following a registration process.<br>
<br>
Is that correct?<br>
<br>
<br>
Nigel<br>
<br>
PS: I apologise for not having read every single email that was sent<br>
before I joined this list last week; as my law professor (a High Court<br>
judge said: "Nothing is obvious to everybody").<br>
<br>
On 09/07/15 15:07, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Nigel,<br>
<br>
A California unincorporated association is a limited liability vehicle,<br>
as it is in certain other jurisdictions. If we were to go down the<br>
route of have SO/ACs be/create/empower (three different options) a legal<br>
entity, one would expect a choice to be made that would shield SO/ACs<br>
and their members from unlimited legal liability (and there are a<br>
variety of options to do so). While this should be implicit by now in<br>
this discussion, since it has been explicitly discussed in the past, I'm<br>
glad for the opportunity to make it explicit once again. Suggesting<br>
someone cross the street is not equivalent to telling them to walk into<br>
traffic.<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Nigel Roberts <<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Greg, all<br>
<br>
I have a deadly serious question.<br>
<br>
Why would any Member of an SO voluntarily submit to the danger of<br>
unlimited monetary liability?<br>
<br>
So why is anyone even considering UA status for more than 10 seconds?<br>
<br>
<br>
Nigel<br>
<br>
See<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.scvo.org.uk/setting-up-a-charity/decide-on-a-structure/voluntary-or-unincorporated-association/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.scvo.org.uk/setting-up-a-charity/decide-on-a-structure/voluntary-or-unincorporated-association/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/07/15 14:35, Seun Ojedeji wrote:<br>
<br>
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Greg Shatan<br>
<<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Seun,<br>
<br>
Can you point where this understanding and learning comes<br>
from? I<br>
don't think any of this is correct, unless you are<br>
referring to a<br>
"council" where each SO/AC is a statutory member of the<br>
corporation.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes indeed thats what i was referring to<br>
<br>
This is not the case in the "single member model," where<br>
there is<br>
only one statutory member.<br>
<br>
<br>
Okay thanks for clarifying that for me. So if i get this<br>
correctly; does<br>
it mean one of the SO/AC will be a member and then every other<br>
SO and AC<br>
exercise their powers through that single member?. Specifically<br>
which of<br>
the SO/AC will be member in the single member model?<br>
<br>
However if one of the SO/AC won't have to become a member but<br>
the entire<br>
council becoming a UA to fulfill membership requirement, how<br>
will that<br>
address some SO/AC not wanting to enter into such legal<br>
formality? also<br>
how will accountability of the council be ensured as it could<br>
then mean<br>
creating a mini-ICANN board as the council members would have<br>
the voting<br>
rights, independence et all. Perhaps the council can be limited<br>
by its<br>
governing document, but how will removing council members for<br>
instance<br>
be in effect if the populating source(SO/AC) is not a UA.<br>
<br>
Perhaps its not as complicated as i am imagining it so it will<br>
be good<br>
to hear some clarifications.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
<br>
Greg<br>
<br>
On Thursday, July 9, 2015, Seun Ojedeji<br>
<<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
I understand the powers would be bestowed on the council<br>
individuals and not their source position;<br>
<br>
For instance one of the option is to populate the<br>
community<br>
council with leaders of SO/AC, which IMO would be the<br>
cheapest<br>
route in this model so they would be occupying a<br>
virtual seat<br>
and exercise those powers when required. It would also<br>
allow the<br>
various SO/AC internet accountability mechanisms<br>
apply to<br>
council including removal of members.<br>
<br>
However, I then learnt that the council cannot be<br>
formed by<br>
SO/AC leader positions but rather to the occupants of<br>
that<br>
position. This would mean having to rewrite the<br>
bylaw/document<br>
forming the council often since leaders of those<br>
positions are<br>
dynamic and could change at anytime. Will be good to<br>
know if<br>
that is no longer the case<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Sent from Google nexus 4<br>
kindly excuse brevity and typos.<br>
<br>
On 7 Jul 2015 2:56 pm, "Roelof Meijer"<br>
<<a href="mailto:Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl" target="_blank">Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl" target="_blank">Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl</a>>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Interesting, we’re back on the subject of a single<br>
member<br>
structure. It was written off before<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Roelof<br>
<br>
From:<br>
<<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>> on<br>
behalf of Roelof Meijer <<a href="mailto:roelof.meijer@sidn.nl" target="_blank">roelof.meijer@sidn.nl</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:roelof.meijer@sidn.nl" target="_blank">roelof.meijer@sidn.nl</a>>><br>
Date: woensdag 22 april 2015 15:56<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] member organization and<br>
single<br>
membership structure<br>
<br>
Hi Avri,<br>
<br>
The sole membership construction, is a possibility<br>
described<br>
in the legal document in several places: the<br>
comments by the<br>
legal experts on the PCCWG mechanism template (page<br>
64) and<br>
the Community Council mechanism template (page<br>
69). I<br>
sent several emails about it to the WP1 list,<br>
suggesting to<br>
look in the possibility as indeed it would not<br>
necessitate<br>
every SO and AC to become a legal entity. And, as<br>
you do,<br>
suggesting: "make the „Community Council” the sole<br>
member of<br>
ICANN (and thus a formal legal entity), consisting<br>
of either<br>
the SO and AC chairs or SO/AC elected<br>
representatives” (from<br>
an email of 14 April).<br>
<br>
And I would think it would enable the SO’s and AC’s<br>
themselves to continue appointing directors, as<br>
they do now.<br>
But that’s just guessing, based on the fact that<br>
the SO’s<br>
and AC’s themselves would not change status<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Roelof<br>
<br>
From: Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>><br>
Organization: Technicalities<br>
Reply-To: "<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>><br>
Date: woensdag 22 april 2015 15:09<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] member organization and<br>
single<br>
membership structure<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
On 22-Apr-15 08:26, Roelof Meijer wrote:<br>
<br>
2)<br>
What I find quite frustrating is that I have<br>
raised the<br>
point of the possibility (or not) of a single<br>
membership<br>
structure – an option mentioned by Sidley and<br>
Adler &<br>
Colving in their legal advice – several times<br>
by now<br>
without getting any substantial reaction. I am<br>
not aware<br>
that any serious effort to investigate this has<br>
led to a<br>
formal write-off.<br>
<br>
<br>
In some way that might lessen the complexity of<br>
making most<br>
SOAC an individual legal entity.<br>
<br>
How would it work? Would we continue to appoint<br>
Directors<br>
just as we do now?<br>
<br>
Or would there need to be some sort of Members<br>
Council that<br>
took actions, working simliarly to the the<br>
executive board<br>
or community council idea?<br>
<br>
thanks<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B2348035233535" value="+2348035233535" target="_blank">+2348035233535</a> <tel:%2B2348035233535><br>
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The key to understanding is humility - my view !<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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