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+ 1 Avri and Paul<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/13/2015 3:32 PM, Paul Twomey
wrote:<br>
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+1 With the limited time we have available, we are going to need
to focus on outcomes we need to deliver to the CWG - and then
other tasking for follow-up work, either by the ccwg or other
working groups/processes.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/14/15 5:19 AM, Jonathan Zuck
wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">Exactly
Avri!<br>
<br>
Sent from my Windows Phone</div>
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<hr> <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
font-size:11pt; font-weight:bold">From: </span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:avri@acm.org">Avri
Doria</a></span><br>
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt;
font-weight:bold">Sent: </span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">7/13/2015
2:52 PM</span><br>
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt;
font-weight:bold">To: </span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a></a></span><br>
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt;
font-weight:bold">Subject: </span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">Re:
[CCWG-ACCT] An implication of accountability models being
discussed</span><br>
<br>
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<div class="PlainText">Hi,<br>
<br>
I ask again, it this really the time to go down these rat
holes?<br>
<br>
Are we trying to set up an argument by counterexample were
we object to<br>
the major thesis about what is needed for ICANN
accountability by<br>
quibbling about past events we could never come to
agreement on? This<br>
sort of exercise often falls into the fallacy of
compostion by assuming<br>
that a complex whole can be negated by denying one of its
parts.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
On 13-Jul-15 14:32, Steve Crocker wrote:<br>
> [George’s note and this note were not coordinated in
advance nor have<br>
> he and I had this discussion.]<br>
><br>
> George.<br>
><br>
> I very much like your proposed approach. I suspect
the first step is<br>
> actually quite hard and contentious. For each of the
incidents of<br>
> concern, I suspect different people have strongly
different views on<br>
> what happened. It may require getting some neutral
people to listen<br>
> carefully to the competing views, gather the facts
and present them in<br>
> a balanced form. I am not happy having to say this,
but I think<br>
> that’s the environment we’re working in. Many of the
people have<br>
> strong ideas as to whether the right thing or the
wrong thing was<br>
> done, and their presentations frequently support
their conclusions.<br>
><br>
> Steve<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Jul 13, 2015, at 12:49 PM, George Sadowsky<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Malcolm,<br>
>><br>
>> [These are my personal opinions, and in no way
are they meant to<br>
>> represent the opinions of anyone else or of any
organization.]<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you for this note. I believe that it
provides a balanced<br>
>> perspective from which to discuss issues of
accountability.<br>
>><br>
>> I'd like to suggest a next step in the direction
of due diligence.<br>
>> For each of the alleged misbehaviors, in
Jonathan Zuck's or any<br>
>> others' lists, I suggest that the ideal way to
proceed would be to:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Reach a common understanding of what the facts
are and what really<br>
>> happened.<br>
>><br>
>> 2. Characterize why the alleged misbehavior
violated community norms<br>
>> or bylaws, or was inappropriate in any other way.<br>
>><br>
>> 3. Discuss and decide what would/could have
happened if any one of<br>
>> the several accountability models currently being
discussed had been<br>
>> in force.<br>
>><br>
>> 4. Discuss whether the proposed changes would be
overkill, with<br>
>> respect to this specific incident only, i.e.
judging whether the<br>
>> response is proportional to the alleged
misbehavior.<br>
>><br>
>> I know that this is not possible in the large,
but I think that it<br>
>> would be instructive, certainly for me, to choose
some examples and<br>
>> work them through.<br>
>><br>
>> This suggestion is not meant to sidetrack the
issue of developing an<br>
>> appropriate accountability structure for its own
sake. As Malcolm<br>
>> notes, "accountability is<br>
>> desirable per se, and improvements should be put
in place because<br>
>> they are<br>
>> desirable in their own right." That's an
important part of the<br>
>> equation also.<br>
>><br>
>> I seek serious conversations on this subject in
Paris. Anyone else? <br>
>><br>
>> George <br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Jul 13, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Malcolm Hutty <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:malcolm@linx.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:malcolm@linx.net">malcolm@linx.net</a></a><br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:malcolm@linx.net">mailto:malcolm@linx.net</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> On 2015-07-13 04:48, George Sadowsky wrote:<br>
>>>> But I would like to push back on your
belief that past practice, while<br>
>>>> interesting, is not relevant to our
discussion. I believe that it is<br>
>>>> relevant, if only to agree with George
Santayana's statement that<br>
>>>> people who do not understand history are
doomed to repeat it.<br>
>>> [..]<br>
>>>> But it should also help the CCWG, in that
where there is factually<br>
>>>> verified and agreed upon evidence of out
of bounds behavior by the<br>
>>>> Board (or for that matter any other
organization in the ICANN orbit),<br>
>>>> one of your "stress tests"should be to
discuss what kind of reaction<br>
>>>> that behavior would produce if one or
more of your accountability<br>
>>>> models had been in place at the time. I
would think that this is a<br>
>>>> necessary test of any new accountability
proposal. Wouldn't not doing<br>
>>>> this be a failure of due diligence?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Generally I agree with Jonathan when he says
that accountability is<br>
>>> desirable per se, and improvements should be
put in place because<br>
>>> they are<br>
>>> desirable in their own right, and should not
have to be justified by<br>
>>> reference to some past misdemeanour they are
intended to correct.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On the other hand, the advice I quote above
from George is also<br>
>>> compelling:<br>
>>> if we fail to address identifiable problems
that have arisen before,<br>
>>> then<br>
>>> that would be delinquency on our part.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So it seems to me that the question of past
issues is not symmetrical:<br>
>>> evidence of past problems is relevant input
to justify a proposed<br>
>>> accountability<br>
>>> improvement, but a lack of evidence of past
misbehaviour is not relevant<br>
>>> input as to why a proposed accountability
improvement is not necessary.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Malcolm<br>
>>> -- <br>
>>> Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645
3523<br>
>><br>
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
>> George Sadowsky Residence
tel: +1.802.457.3370<br>
>> 119 Birch Way GSM
mobile: +1.202.415.1933<br>
>> Woodstock, VT 05091-7986 USA SMS: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:2024151933@txt.att.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:2024151933@txt.att.net">2024151933@txt.att.net</a></a><br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:2024151933@txt.att.net">mailto:2024151933@txt.att.net</a>>
<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a>>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.georgesadowsky.org/">http://www.georgesadowsky.org/</a><br>
>> Skype: sadowsky
twitter: @georgesadowsky<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dr Paul Twomey
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