<div>No, ICANN accountability is the roadrunner and the coyote is the CWG-ACCT / ATRT / IIC / OneWorldTrust / internet community.<br><br><br>Kieren</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 5:20 AM Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
In the cartoon, you are The Coyote and ICANN is the roadrunner?<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
On 18-Jul-15 14:09, Kieren McCarthy wrote:<br>
> My thought on that statement is best summed up by this graphic... :)<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:22 PM Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> And what I am saying is that it isn't a mistake, just a job not yet<br>
> completed.<br>
><br>
> avri<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 17-Jul-15 22:15, Kieren McCarthy wrote:<br>
> > What I am saying Avri is that we should not keep making the same<br>
> > mistake over and over again.<br>
> ><br>
> > And one of those mistakes is to continue to believe that a single<br>
> > person can bring a decent level of accountability to ICANN. They<br>
> > cannot. Especially when they are reliant on ICANN for doing<br>
> their job<br>
> > and getting paid.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Kieren<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > On 17-Jul-15 20:38, Kieren McCarthy wrote:<br>
> > > > some personnel issues should remain confidential,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I don't understand why people keep putting this strawman out<br>
> > there. No<br>
> > > one is suggesting, or indeed has ever suggested, that<br>
> personnel<br>
> > issues<br>
> > > be included in a proper accountability mechanism.<br>
> ><br>
> > True.<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Why would a strengthened ombudsman not be a good fit for<br>
> this<br>
> > role?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I'll give you three good reasons:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > 1. The Ombudsman was created in 2004. Despite numerous efforts<br>
> > to make<br>
> > > the role effective, it has never happened. Why keep making<br>
> the same<br>
> > > mistake?<br>
> ><br>
> > Previous failure is not a mistake.<br>
> > I believe we can succeed at doing this.<br>
> ><br>
> > And the Ombudsman can get access to any information. It is<br>
> uncertain<br>
> > how much he can do with it at this point, but at least<br>
> someone who is<br>
> > trusted can look and can give testimony about the validity of<br>
> > redactions.<br>
> ><br>
> > Sure I would like to see ICANN live of to ATRT obligations,<br>
> take<br>
> > on CSR<br>
> > seriously, have reasonable RR and stronger independent<br>
> reviews and<br>
> > audits &c., but we should not give up the partial successes<br>
> > because they<br>
> > are not right yet. WS2 will focus on strengthening the<br>
> ombudsman role<br>
> > and I think we can do it.<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > 2. The Ombudsman is completely reliant on ICANN corporate. For<br>
> > access<br>
> > > to people and documents, for resources, for salary, for<br>
> technical<br>
> > > support, for logistical support, for an office, for a room<br>
> at ICANN<br>
> > > meetings, for everything except his own body. And his role and<br>
> > what he<br>
> > > can do is determined by ICANN's legal department in the<br>
> rules that<br>
> > > they wrote. The Ombudsman also signs a very strong<br>
> confidentiality<br>
> > > agreement with ICANN that effectively ties their hands on<br>
> everything<br>
> > > except illegal activity. See point 1.<br>
> ><br>
> > Ombudsman in general are paid for by the company they work<br>
> for. And<br>
> > they often still have strong independence. Some even have power<br>
> > to fix<br>
> > things. We should fix the aspects of the ombudsman support that<br>
> > need to<br>
> > be fixed, we should not give up.<br>
> ><br>
> > See response to point 1.<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > 3. An Ombudsman is a single person. And one completely<br>
> reliant on<br>
> > > ICANN. This provides an enormous degree of control by<br>
> ICANN and very<br>
> > > little freedom for the accountability role the Ombusdsman is<br>
> > supposed<br>
> > > to fulfill. There are numerous people able to testify that<br>
> ICANN<br>
> > > corporate has no hesitation in applying significant<br>
> pressure on<br>
> > > individuals if they act in a way that it deemed a<br>
> potential threat.<br>
> > > All of those people are however under confidentiality<br>
> agreements<br>
> > with<br>
> > > ICANN.<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > Actually we have an Ombudsman's office with 2 people in it.<br>
> ><br>
> > It either needs to be fixed or we need to walk away from ICANN.<br>
> > Some of<br>
> > us have done so and are probably making a good living picking on<br>
> > ICANN,<br>
> > and some of us are thinking of walking away just to make a<br>
> living<br>
> > (volunteering is a difficult vocation). But those who do stay<br>
> > need to<br>
> > keep trying to fix it for as long as they do stay. And new<br>
> people<br>
> > come<br>
> > to the effort all the time, determined to succeed where we fail.<br>
> ><br>
> > For anyone who says ICANN never improves, I ask them to<br>
> think back<br>
> > to a<br>
> > decade ago and compare. Problems there still are, but it is<br>
> nowhere<br>
> > near as bad as it once was. Could be a lot better, but also<br>
> could be a<br>
> > lot worse.<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > The only way to bring actual accountability to ICANN is to<br>
> have<br>
> > people<br>
> > > that are not dependent on ICANN and are not muzzled by<br>
> > confidentiality<br>
> > > agreements asking the questions.<br>
> ><br>
> > True they are necessary. But they are only one part of the<br>
> > story. They<br>
> > need internal allies.<br>
> > And it is my impression that though not as effective as he<br>
> could have<br>
> > been due to conditions you describe, the ombudsman has<br>
> helped in many<br>
> > cases. And does as much as possible to support the people who<br>
> > need help.<br>
> ><br>
> > > And those people are... the 2,000 people that turn up to ICANN<br>
> > > meetings. The community.<br>
> ><br>
> > Actually aren't most of them there to wheel and deal?<br>
> > Only hundreds go to meetings dedicated to doing the policy<br>
> stuff.<br>
> ><br>
> > And they need the support of a strong ombudsman office.<br>
> > and a CSR officer, and ...<br>
> ><br>
> > That is what this process is all about.<br>
> ><br>
> > avri<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
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</blockquote></div>