<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Thanks Jordan.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">This sounds like a further misunderstanding. Members don't owe fiduciary duties generally speaking, just as the organisations that would comprise the member (the SOs and ACs) don't today. The Board's members do. The existence of a membership system modifies those duties for Board members - they do not breach fiduciary duties in implementing a decision a member has made.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I don’t think the membership ’system’ does what you suggest but will be happy to be corrected…... and irrespective, the crux of the ‘issue’ for me is to whom the member is accountable…..something we haven’t actually discussed yet…unless I’ve missed it.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; min-height: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Cheers,</p><p class="p3" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); min-height: 16px; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chris</p>
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 22:38 , Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">hi all, hi Chris:<div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:30, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">Hi Jordan,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">See below.<br class=""><br class=""><div class="">Cheers,</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">Chris </div></div><span class=""><div class=""><br class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 22:15, Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Chris, all:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The second is not the same with the single member model. As has been outlined on list before, the different fiduciary duties situation that exists with membership solves that problem.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></span><div class="">Yes....still not sure I understand that. </div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It's a critical issue - I think our lawyers will deal with it in a crisp way in what comes out soon, but if not it has to be teased out.</div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">In practical terms, is it not correct that in either case the board can <b class="">claim</b> that to act would be a breach of fiduciary duty and that in both cases that should be appealable and in both cases are the ultimate sanctions not the same?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The Board can of course claim anything, but there are material differences in the fiduciary duties it owes in a membership model. It can't claim that implementing a decision of the member is a breach of those duties, for example.</div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In passing, I think there is a longer discussion to be had about the shifting of fiduciary duty to a member, not least to whom is that member accountable and how can the member be challenged that an act proposed by them is outside fiduciary duty. </div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This sounds like a further misunderstanding. Members don't owe fiduciary duties generally speaking, just as the organisations that would comprise the member (the SOs and ACs) don't today. The Board's members do. The existence of a membership system modifies those duties for Board members - they do not breach fiduciary duties in implementing a decision a member has made.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This could be a rabbit hole but the point is that the member option has more flexibility in determining matters and does not create impossibilities for the Board where it does so. That's a design feature of the choice of membership.</div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><span class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">On the first, the plan of the CCWG has been binding not advisory IRP so I don't think that it is the same, no. </div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></span><div class="">The Board's proposal is also the the arbitration be binding. And David's point is not the bindingness but the ability to create a remedy. Is that not the same in the CCWG model? It's certainly the impression I have got from the discussions with Becky.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'll step away from this - I have deliberately not focused on the IRP, and so can't offer any further comment here.</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">best</div><div class="">J</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><span class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">On the third, that does seem a sensible time frame constraint...</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></span><div class="">I agree and it would be required in both cases. </div><div class=""><div class="h5"><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">best</div><div class="">Jordan</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:06, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">Hello David,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I appreciate the constructive criticism 😀.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Are these points not the same as with the IRP in the sole member model? They would need to be addressed in either case wouldn't they?</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">Cheers,</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">Chris </div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 21:59, McAuley, David <<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" target="_blank" class="">dmcauley@verisign.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">I appreciate the board’s input and take it as a good faith effort to enhance and evolve the CCWG proposal.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">However, I have, with respect, three critiques of it.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">First, the ability to create a remedy if the MEM panel finds against the board is completely within the board’s discretion. Even a slight (even inconsequential) “remedy” would be a remedy and would, effectively, bar any viable avenue to
court enforcement. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Second, (and this applies to any panel ruling) any decision by the board to state that a ruling against it falls into the area of the board’s fiduciary obligations (thus frustrating implementation of the ruling) should itself be appealable
to ensure that this is, in fact, an objectively justified conclusion. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">And, third, if we went down this path, the board’s ability to create a remedy (subject, I would urge, to some test for reasonableness) should be time-limited so that a claimant need not wait and wonder if it can ever appeal to court. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">David McAuley<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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