<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">We can 'resolve' that by accepting that mutual accountability is important but that in the end, separations of responsibilities and clear rules along with transparency are the best we, or any other governance system, can manage.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I disagree. Under the Board’s proposal there is a focussed point that can be ‘attacked' and put to arbitration and eventual judicial decision. Under the member model there is a gap because the same things cannot happen to the member. In the Board’s proposal the ultimate responsibility is the Board’s subject to binding arbitration and court enforcement. In the CCWG model the ultimate responsibility is the member but to whom are they accountable under the mission of ICANN that we must act in the global public interest.<br class=""><div class="">
<p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; min-height: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Cheers,</p><p class="p3" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); min-height: 16px; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chris</p>
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 23:22 , Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Two entirely different issues. The issue of SO/AC accountability to the communities that organise through them is identified as one that is beyond Work Stream 1, because it is an enduring and ongoing iCANN issue.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you'd like to promote that into WS1, could you tease out the logic a bit more?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Improvements or consideration of that question does not resolve the "who watches the watchers" matter implicit in the other point. We can 'resolve' that by accepting that mutual accountability is important but that in the end, separations of responsibilities and clear rules along with transparency are the best we, or any other governance system, can manage.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">my tuppence!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">J</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 01:00, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><span style="font-family:'Verdana';font-size:13px;color:rgb(102,102,102)" class=""><span class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">If we go down an endless chain of "but who are *they* accountable to?" then we simply lock into an endlessly recursive argument that can never be resolved.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That doesn't mean SOs and ACs can't improve accountability - I believe we have specified that as a WS2 topic, and that it's natural fodder for ATRT reviews?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></span>Are those 2 statements not contradictory? Either we can resolve or we can’t. If we can’t then I believe that is a flaw in the plan and if we can resolve then I believe we should do so as part of our current work.<br class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; min-height: 14px; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">Cheers,</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); min-height: 16px; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">Chris</div>
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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 22:52 , Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Sam, as I just noted to Chris, the lawyers need to flesh that out. As a matter of principle, on the narrow scope of decisions the member is allocated in the CCWG's second draft proposal, complying with those decisions does not give rise to a breach of directors' fiduciary duties -- even if, in the absence of such a model (e.g. if there was no member and it was simply a "recommendation" from some kind of community group), it was held to do so. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Chris: your latest just gets back to the endless chain of accountability discussion that we've come to now and again since the Istanbul meeting. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To recap: given that the body being held to account (ICANN's Board) is shifting from a situation of external accountability (NTIA contract) to internal community accountability (through this system), the only option we have is for stakeholders organised in some way to fulfil that function, along with the mutual accountability that can arise from the Forum proposal.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Those people, the participants in the various SOs and ACs, are the people to whom ICANN needs to be accountable. They are the direct users and interested indirect users who choose to participate in this ICANN project.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If we go down an endless chain of "but who are *they* accountable to?" then we simply lock into an endlessly recursive argument that can never be resolved.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That doesn't mean SOs and ACs can't improve accountability - I believe we have specified that as a WS2 topic, and that it's natural fodder for ATRT reviews?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers!</div><div class="">Jordan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:43, Samantha Eisner <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:Samantha.Eisner@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">Samantha.Eisner@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="">Jordan, can you please elaborate more on the “different fiduciary duty” situation that you refer? As I understand it, the fiduciary duties of the Board do not change whether a member is present or not. </div>
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<div class="">Thanks, </div>
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<div class="">Sam</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">From: </span><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Date: </span>Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 5:15 AM<br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">To: </span>Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a>><br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Cc: </span>"Accountability Cross Community (<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><span class=""><br class="">
<span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Subject: </span>Re: [CCWG-ACCT] MEM and enforceability<br class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Chris, all:
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<div class="">The second is not the same with the single member model. As has been outlined on list before, the different fiduciary duties situation that exists with membership solves that problem.</div>
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<div class="">On the first, the plan of the CCWG has been binding not advisory IRP so I don't think that it is the same, no. </div>
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<div class="">On the third, that does seem a sensible time frame constraint...</div>
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<div class="">best</div>
<div class="">Jordan</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:06, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
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<div class="">Hello David,</div>
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<div class="">I appreciate the constructive criticism 😀.</div>
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<div class="">Are these points not the same as with the IRP in the sole member model? They would need to be addressed in either case wouldn't they?</div>
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<div class="">Cheers,</div>
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<div class="">Chris </div>
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On 22 Sep 2015, at 21:59, McAuley, David <<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" target="_blank" class="">dmcauley@verisign.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">I appreciate the board’s input and take it as a good faith effort to enhance and evolve the CCWG proposal.</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">However, I have, with respect, three critiques of it.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">First, the ability to create a remedy if the MEM panel finds against the board is completely within the board’s discretion. Even a slight (even inconsequential) “remedy” would be a remedy and would, effectively, bar any viable avenue to
court enforcement. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Second, (and this applies to any panel ruling) any decision by the board to state that a ruling against it falls into the area of the board’s fiduciary obligations (thus frustrating implementation of the ruling) should itself be appealable
to ensure that this is, in fact, an objectively justified conclusion. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">And, third, if we went down this path, the board’s ability to create a remedy (subject, I would urge, to some test for reasonableness) should be time-limited so that a claimant need not wait and wonder if it can ever appeal to court. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">David McAuley<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class="">Jordan Carter<br class="">
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Chief Executive <br class="">
<b class="">InternetNZ</b><br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class="">Jordan Carter<br class=""><br class="">Chief Executive <br class=""><b class="">InternetNZ</b><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class=""><br class=""><a href="tel:%2B64-4-495-2118" value="+6444952118" target="_blank" class="">+64-4-495-2118</a> (office) | <a href="tel:%2B64-21-442-649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank" class="">+64-21-442-649</a> (mob)<br class="">Email: <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br class="">Skype: jordancarter<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:small" class="">Web: <a href="http://www.internetnz.nz/" target="_blank" class="">www.internetnz.nz</a> </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class=""><br class=""><i class="">A better world through a better Internet </i></div><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class="">Jordan Carter<br class=""><br class="">Chief Executive <br class=""><b class="">InternetNZ</b><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class=""><br class="">+64-4-495-2118 (office) | +64-21-442-649 (mob)<br class="">Email: <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br class="">Skype: jordancarter<br class=""></div><div style="font-size:small" class="">Web: <a href="http://www.internetnz.nz/" target="_blank" class="">www.internetnz.nz</a> </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small" class=""><br class=""><i class="">A better world through a better Internet </i></div><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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