<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">+ 100 Avri.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But we still need to follow the paths that will exist to ensure that we understand how they work and what the consequences are.<br class=""><div class="">
<p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; min-height: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Cheers,</p><p class="p3" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); min-height: 16px; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(148, 67, 251); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chris</p>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 23:07 , Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" class="">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">I would prefer that we avoid needing to use the courts for that purpose.<br class=""><br class="">One of the things I argued for in the development of the CM is that<br class="">relying on the courts would always be as a last resort. Not the initial<br class="">guarantee. For the multistakeholder model to work we need to resolve<br class="">the accountability issue within the expanding community as much as possible.<br class=""><br class="">This easy resort to US courts is something I find problematic. If the<br class="">Board's response to an disagreement is "take us to court if you don't<br class="">like it," we will have failed.<br class=""><br class="">avri<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 22-Sep-15 08:55, Chris Disspain wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Avri,<br class=""><br class="">But under the MEM and under the sole member model the ultimate arbiter<br class="">of that would be the courts in California. No?<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Cheers,<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Chris<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 22 Sep 2015, at 22:51 , Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" class="">avri@acm.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" class="">mailto:avri@acm.org</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">I think that the fiduciary responsibility does not change. What changes<br class="">is whether the Board has unilateral and final control of the meaning and<br class="">implications of its fiduciary responsibility or of the decisions based<br class="">upon that vision.<br class=""><br class="">avri<br class=""><br class="">On 22-Sep-15 08:43, Samantha Eisner wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Jordan, can you please elaborate more on the “different fiduciary<br class="">duty” situation that you refer? As I understand it, the fiduciary<br class="">duties of the Board do not change whether a member is present or not. <br class=""><br class="">Thanks,<br class=""><br class="">Sam<br class=""><br class="">From: <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" class="">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>>> on behalf<br class="">of Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>>><br class="">Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 5:15 AM<br class="">To: Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a> <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">mailto:ceo@auda.org.au</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">mailto:ceo@auda.org.au</a>>><br class="">Cc: "Accountability Cross Community<br class="">(<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>)"<br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" class="">mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>>><br class="">Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] MEM and enforceability<br class=""><br class="">Hi Chris, all:<br class=""><br class="">The second is not the same with the single member model. As has been<br class="">outlined on list before, the different fiduciary duties situation that<br class="">exists with membership solves that problem.<br class=""><br class="">On the first, the plan of the CCWG has been binding not advisory IRP<br class="">so I don't think that it is the same, no.<br class=""><br class="">On the third, that does seem a sensible time frame constraint...<br class=""><br class="">best<br class="">Jordan<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 23 September 2015 at 00:06, Chris Disspain <<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">ceo@auda.org.au</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">mailto:ceo@auda.org.au</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" class="">mailto:ceo@auda.org.au</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> Hello David,<br class=""><br class=""> I appreciate the constructive criticism 😀.<br class=""><br class=""> Are these points not the same as with the IRP in the sole member<br class=""> model? They would need to be addressed in either case wouldn't they?<br class=""><br class=""> Cheers,<br class=""><br class=""> Chris<br class=""><br class=""> On 22 Sep 2015, at 21:59, McAuley, David <<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" class="">dmcauley@verisign.com</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" class="">mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com</a>><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" class="">mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""> I appreciate the board’s input and take it as a good faith effort<br class=""> to enhance and evolve the CCWG proposal.<br class=""><br class=""> However, I have, with respect, three critiques of it.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> First, the ability to create a remedy if the MEM panel finds<br class=""> against the board is completely within the board’s discretion.<br class=""> Even a slight (even inconsequential) “remedy” would be a remedy<br class=""> and would, effectively, bar any viable avenue to court enforcement.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> Second, (and this applies to any panel ruling) any decision by<br class=""> the board to state that a ruling against it falls into the area<br class=""> of the board’s fiduciary obligations (thus frustrating<br class=""> implementation of the ruling) should itself be appealable to<br class=""> ensure that this is, in fact, an objectively justified conclusion.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> And, third, if we went down this path, the board’s ability to<br class=""> create a remedy (subject, I would urge, to some test for<br class=""> reasonableness) should be time-limited so that a claimant need<br class=""> not wait and wonder if it can ever appeal to court. <br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> David McAuley<br class=""><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">-- <br class="">Jordan Carter<br class=""><br class="">Chief Executive<br class="">*InternetNZ*<br class=""><br class="">+64-4-495-2118 (office) | +64-21-442-649 (mob)<br class="">Email: <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br class=""><<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" class="">mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br class="">Skype: jordancarter<br class="">Web: <a href="http://www.internetnz.nz" class="">www.internetnz.nz</a> <<a href="http://www.internetnz.nz" class="">http://www.internetnz.nz</a>><br class=""><<a href="http://www.internetnz.nz" class="">http://www.internetnz.nz</a>><br class=""><br class="">/A better world through a better Internet /<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br class=""><mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org><br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">---<br class="">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus" class="">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">---<br class="">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus" class="">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br class="">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></span></body></html>