<div dir="ltr">hi all, hi Chris:<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:30, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Hi Jordan,</div><div><br></div><div>See below.<br><br><div>Cheers,</div><div> </div><div>Chris </div></div><span class=""><div><br>On 22 Sep 2015, at 22:15, Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Hi Chris, all:<div><br></div><div>The second is not the same with the single member model. As has been outlined on list before, the different fiduciary duties situation that exists with membership solves that problem.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Yes....still not sure I understand that. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's a critical issue - I think our lawyers will deal with it in a crisp way in what comes out soon, but if not it has to be teased out.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>In practical terms, is it not correct that in either case the board can <b>claim</b> that to act would be a breach of fiduciary duty and that in both cases that should be appealable and in both cases are the ultimate sanctions not the same?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The Board can of course claim anything, but there are material differences in the fiduciary duties it owes in a membership model. It can't claim that implementing a decision of the member is a breach of those duties, for example.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>In passing, I think there is a longer discussion to be had about the shifting of fiduciary duty to a member, not least to whom is that member accountable and how can the member be challenged that an act proposed by them is outside fiduciary duty. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This sounds like a further misunderstanding. Members don't owe fiduciary duties generally speaking, just as the organisations that would comprise the member (the SOs and ACs) don't today. The Board's members do. The existence of a membership system modifies those duties for Board members - they do not breach fiduciary duties in implementing a decision a member has made.</div><div><br></div><div>This could be a rabbit hole but the point is that the member option has more flexibility in determining matters and does not create impossibilities for the Board where it does so. That's a design feature of the choice of membership.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span class=""><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>On the first, the plan of the CCWG has been binding not advisory IRP so I don't think that it is the same, no. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The Board's proposal is also the the arbitration be binding. And David's point is not the bindingness but the ability to create a remedy. Is that not the same in the CCWG model? It's certainly the impression I have got from the discussions with Becky.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'll step away from this - I have deliberately not focused on the IRP, and so can't offer any further comment here.</div><div> </div><div>best</div><div>J</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>On the third, that does seem a sensible time frame constraint...</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I agree and it would be required in both cases. </div><div><div class="h5"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>best</div><div>Jordan</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 September 2015 at 00:06, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Hello David,</div><div><br></div><div>I appreciate the constructive criticism 😀.</div><div><br></div><div>Are these points not the same as with the IRP in the sole member model? They would need to be addressed in either case wouldn't they?</div><div><br><div>Cheers,</div><div> </div><div>Chris </div></div><div><div><div><br>On 22 Sep 2015, at 21:59, McAuley, David <<a href="mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com" target="_blank">dmcauley@verisign.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I appreciate the board’s input and take it as a good faith effort to enhance and evolve the CCWG proposal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I have, with respect, three critiques of it.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">First, the ability to create a remedy if the MEM panel finds against the board is completely within the board’s discretion. Even a slight (even inconsequential) “remedy” would be a remedy and would, effectively, bar any viable avenue to
court enforcement. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Second, (and this applies to any panel ruling) any decision by the board to state that a ruling against it falls into the area of the board’s fiduciary obligations (thus frustrating implementation of the ruling) should itself be appealable
to ensure that this is, in fact, an objectively justified conclusion. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And, third, if we went down this path, the board’s ability to create a remedy (subject, I would urge, to some test for reasonableness) should be time-limited so that a claimant need not wait and wonder if it can ever appeal to court. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David McAuley<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small">Jordan Carter<br><br>Chief Executive <br><b>InternetNZ</b><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><br><a href="tel:%2B64-4-495-2118" value="+6444952118" target="_blank">+64-4-495-2118</a> (office) | <a href="tel:%2B64-21-442-649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64-21-442-649</a> (mob)<br>Email: <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>Skype: jordancarter<br></div><div style="font-size:small">Web: <a href="http://www.internetnz.nz" target="_blank">www.internetnz.nz</a> </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><br><i>A better world through a better Internet </i></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small">Jordan Carter<br><br>Chief Executive <br><b>InternetNZ</b><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><br>+64-4-495-2118 (office) | +64-21-442-649 (mob)<br>Email: <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>Skype: jordancarter<br></div><div style="font-size:small">Web: <a href="http://www.internetnz.nz" target="_blank">www.internetnz.nz</a> </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><br><i>A better world through a better Internet </i></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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