<HTML><BODY><p style='margin-top: 0px;' dir="ltr">I can't speak for anyone else Niger but I have not accepted the MEM and oppose it completely</p>
<p dir="ltr">--<br>
Paul<br>
Sent from myMail app for Android</p>
Saturday, 03 October 2015, 11:41AM -04:00 from Nigel Roberts <<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net">nigel@channelisles.net</a>>:<br><br><blockquote style='border-left:1px solid #FC2C38; margin:0px 0px 0px 10px; padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;' cite="14438869750000080178">
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<div id="style_14438869750000080178_BODY">I remain confused. Have we accepted the MEM, because it originated from <br>
the Board in a few hours discussion, as being a better alternative than <br>
the 9 months of debate originating SMM? (Nothwithstanding that I <br>
personally don't like a *SINGLE* member membership model).<br>
<br>
The point I'm (repeatedly) making is one of process, not merits of the <br>
competing models.<br>
<br>
<br>
'RULING THE ROOT'<br>
-----------------<br>
<br>
Over the last 48 hours I've been reading Milton Mueller's excellent <br>
history: 'Ruling the Root'. (Hi Milton!). Despite the fact I've seen by <br>
personal observation of how Milton can, in person, be at least as <br>
"ornery", as Dr Lisse, which might otherwise cloud my judgment, I cannot <br>
recommend this book more highly.<br>
<br>
It sets out, in exquisite and fully referenced detail, the previous <br>
occasions (yes, plural) that "an aggressive timescale" led to unexpected <br>
outcomes.<br>
<br>
I will be blunt. If you haven't read this book (or done so a long time) <br>
then you are failing in your duty towards achieving the goal of the WG <br>
and it should be your next task.<br>
<br>
I'm actually really sorry I didn't read this months and years ago; just <br>
because I lived a large part of it did not prepare me for the fact that <br>
this book<br>
<br>
(a) synthesises the dynamics that went on in the creation of ICANN and <br>
documents it to 'before the dawn of (internet) time'.<br>
<br>
(b) provides a cautionary tale.<br>
<br>
<br>
It seems to me that the CCWG is hell bent on repeating the mistakes of <br>
our predecessors rather more closely than I'd already said.<br>
<br>
It needs to be required reading for every single ICANN Board Member, GAC <br>
rep and member of this CCWG.<br>
<br>
And it's available on Kindle.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Nigel Roberts<br>
<br>
>> On Oct 2, 2015, at 7:55 PM, Greg Shatan <<a href="/compose?To=gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Case dismissed.<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="/compose?To=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Greg, I think we bring so much legal stuff into this that makes us<br>
>> forget the element of nature called "choice".<br>
>><br>
>> Can you tell me the outcome of a scenario where the community by<br>
>> "choice" decides to ask/mandate board to implement certain things<br>
>> and then if board by choice decides not to implement such request.<br>
>> Does the community go into the implementation without paying<br>
>> recognition to the board or what?<br>
>><br>
>> My point was that it is ultimately the judge's verdict that<br>
>> enforce and not necessarily the membership nor MEM. All through<br>
>> the escalation process before courts, the community and/or the<br>
>> board has a choice to make and because there is membership should<br>
>> not be perceived as final except the court says so.<br>
>><br>
>> Membership however provides the standing to get to enforce in<br>
>> courts (and such standing is what we are/should also be checking<br>
>> if it exist within MEM). So membership is not itself the end but<br>
>> just the means to the end.<br>
>><br>
>> Again focusing on the means(model) and not the end(goals) is what<br>
>> has been prolonging this process for so long. Earlier in this<br>
>> process, I mentioned that some of us have limited resources and<br>
>> cannot continue this aggressive process for so long. Perhaps this<br>
>> process will exhaust some of us and others well motivated can then<br>
>> have their way.<br>
>><br>
>> I rest my case!<br>
>><br>
>> Regards<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone2<br>
>> Kindly excuse brevity and typos.<br>
>><br>
>> On 3 Oct 2015 00:27, "Greg Shatan" <<a href="/compose?To=gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Seun,<br>
>><br>
>> You are incorrect about how a US membership non-profit<br>
>> corporation works, and how the membership relates to the<br>
>> Board. In a membership non-profit, the membership has certain<br>
>> superior rights vis a vis the Board. I believe this is clear<br>
>> from the Sidley/Adler documents.<br>
>><br>
>> If there is no membership, then the community can only ASK<br>
>> board to do things. That seems to be your desired outcome,<br>
>> but I don't think that is broadly shared within the CCWG. I<br>
>> think this goes beyond even the Board comments, where they are<br>
>> willing to give the Community things that at least look like<br>
>> powers (though subject ultimately to the Board's discretion<br>
>> and judgment)<br>
>><br>
>> The only reason I can think that "going to court to enforce<br>
>> would be more closer in the escalation process than we may be<br>
>> thinking" is the tone and approach of this memo.<br>
>><br>
>> Greg<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Seun Ojedeji<br>
>> <<a href="/compose?To=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Avri,<br>
>><br>
>> I think it needs to be clear that the community can only<br>
>> ASK board to do things, whether they would do it is<br>
>> entirely at the discretion of the board. This is normal<br>
>> for membership setup as the community has no executive<br>
>> status to implement.<br>
>><br>
>> That said, I am in full agreement with trying to resolve<br>
>> things locally as much as possible and if you ask me, I<br>
>> don't think membership will encourage that approach. Going<br>
>> to court to enforce would be more closer in the escalation<br>
>> process than we may be thinking.<br>
>><br>
>> Regards<br>
>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone2<br>
>> Kindly excuse brevity and typos.<br>
>><br>
>> On 2 Oct 2015 23:50, "Avri Doria" <<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi,<br>
>><br>
>> Ultimately yes, they can all end up in court.<br>
>><br>
>> The critical issue in my mind is how many steps we can<br>
>> take inside the<br>
>> organizations process to remedy before having to<br>
>> resort to the ultimate<br>
>> nastyness - appearing before a judge. I think each<br>
>> trip to court is a<br>
>> failure to be avoided. Our model needs to deal<br>
>> properly with shared<br>
>> decision making while allowing for problem resolution<br>
>> in a way that<br>
>> avoids such failures.<br>
>><br>
>> avri<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 02-Oct-15 18:21, Chris Disspain wrote:<br>
>> > I don’t disagree with you Avri but isn’t going to<br>
>> court the ultimate<br>
>> > enforceability in any of the models/ideas we have<br>
>> been discussing?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cheers,<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Chris<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> >> On 2 Oct 2015, at 21:07 , Avri Doria <<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
>> >> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Hi,<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Within ICANN, it rests with the Board.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I resist the idea of including going to court as a<br>
>> normal part of our<br>
>> >> process. I have argued all the way through this<br>
>> process, that going to<br>
>> >> court is something to be avoided and something we<br>
>> should not consider to<br>
>> >> be part of the process. Yes at the end of the day<br>
>> it needs to be<br>
>> >> possible, but it is a failure indication.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> avri<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On 02-Oct-15 06:57, Chris Disspain wrote:<br>
>> >>> No Avri. At the end of the day it rests with the<br>
>> court as I believe is<br>
>> >>> clear from the note from JD.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> After a finding by an arbitration panel that a<br>
>> bylaw has been<br>
>> >>> breached, it is a matter for the Board about how<br>
>> they remedy (as I<br>
>> >>> believe is the case with the member model also)<br>
>> and that remedy is<br>
>> >>> itself subject to a claim that it breaches a bylaw<br>
>> (if the community<br>
>> >>> has consensus). If the Board refuses to abide by<br>
>> the ruling then a<br>
>> >>> court can order them to do so.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Have I misunderstood the way the member model<br>
>> works. I believe Becky<br>
>> >>> has said numerous times that the only finding<br>
>> could be that the<br>
>> >>> relevant bylaw has been breached, NOT that the<br>
>> Board must take a<br>
>> >>> specific action. Is that wrong?<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Cheers,<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Chris<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>> On 2 Oct 2015, at 20:46 , Avri Doria<br>
>> <<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>><br>
>> >>>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>><br>
>> >>>> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="/compose?To=avri@acm.org">avri@acm.org</a>>>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> Hi,<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> That was one of my favorite lines as well.<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> And is a key point. In the current model, and as<br>
>> far as I can tell in<br>
>> >>>> the MEM, at the end of the day, all always rests<br>
>> "within the Board's<br>
>> >>>> discretion."<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> avri<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> On 02-Oct-15 05:29, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:<br>
>> >>>>> I really LOVE this one:<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> [...]<br>
>> >>>>> "the Board is required to remedy that violation,<br>
>> within the<br>
>> >>>>> Board’s discretion."<br>
>> >>>>> [...]<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> (last line on Page 1)<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
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