<div dir="ltr"><div>Actually Nigel is right if it were 1+(-1) but in this case it can be +1 x -1 which would always result to -1, I guess this should say something about the things we insert as mechanisms in this process; Make them complex (by changing its structure as is the case with bracket) and you will be amazed at the zero result. I prefer outcomes that are more predictable ;-)<br><br></div>Cheers!</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Chris Disspain <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au" target="_blank">ceo@auda.org.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-family:'Verdana';font-size:13px;color:rgb(102,102,102)">I believe that mathematically speaking it adds up to -2. But then, what would I know…I’m a recovering lawyer...<br><div>
<p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(148,67,251);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Cheers,</p><p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(148,67,251);min-height:16px;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(148,67,251);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Chris</p>
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<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 8 Oct 2015, at 22:46 , Nigel Roberts <<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>Doesn't that add up to 0?<br><br><br>On 08/10/15 11:19, Chris Disspain wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">+1 to Roelof’s -1 :-)<br><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Chris<br><br><blockquote type="cite">On 8 Oct 2015, at 19:47 , Roelof Meijer <<a href="mailto:Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl" target="_blank">Roelof.Meijer@sidn.nl</a>> wrote:<br><br>-1<br><br><blockquote type="cite">"the Board continues to go their own way<br>and stands in opposition to the community, we may not. We need to<br>complete our work quickly with the fixes and then, as always, it is in<br>the Board's hands. We have already lost several weeks because of the<br>spanner thrown when the Board produced their own proposal for<br>accountability. Just imagine where we would have been had the Board met<br>with us in LA with the attitude of working with the community instead of<br>against it.²<br></blockquote><br>Counterproductive, in my opinion. Let¹s not suggest that the community is<br>in full agreement on the 2nd draft CCWG proposal, it is not.<br>Let¹s not suggest that the board is (nothing but) working against us, it<br>is not. We have agreement on the most important ingredients of the<br>proposal: specific powers for the community that can be enforced. We do<br>not have agreement on the mechanism to implement these. If we want that,<br>and I assume we do, both the board AND we have to change the way we<br>communicate and collaborate with each other.<br>Let¹s stay focussed on our mission, our goals and bridging the gap.<br>Enlarging it, will only help us fail.<br><br>Best,<br><br>Roelof Meijer<br><br><br><br><br>On 07-10-15 13:29, "<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> on<br>behalf of Avri Doria" <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> on<br>behalf of <a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi,<br><br>My reading of this is that if the Board is willing to accept the CCWG<br>proposals, which do reflect broad agreement, then we can make the<br>schedule. If, on the the hand the Board continues to go their own way<br>and stands in opposition to the community, we may not. We need to<br>complete our work quickly with the fixes and then, as always, it is in<br>the Board's hands. We have already lost several weeks because of the<br>spanner thrown when the Board produced their own proposal for<br>accountability. Just imagine where we would have been had the Board met<br>with us in LA with the attitude of working with the community instead of<br>against it.<br><br>I also think the doomsday scenarios are just a bit exaggerated. We have<br>to stop scaring people with the G77 boogeyman. And if the Protocols and<br>Number no longer trust ICANN, they will go their own way, whether it is<br>before transition or after, they have been crystal clear about those<br>intentions - it could happen anytime - why would the status quo of<br>continuing NTIA oversight convince them to leave ICANN? I do agree with<br>point V, if the Board continues to overrule the multistakeholder<br>process, it will become ever harder to convince people that this is a<br>workable modality for decision making.<br><br>avri<br><br><br>On 07-Oct-15 06:11, Malcolm Hutty wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">On 2015-10-07 08:03, Mathieu Weill wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">You will find attached the set of slides that was prepared by ICANN<br>and presented during the calls.<br></blockquote><br>Wow, that slide on page 4 ("5 risks we face if the IANA Stewardship<br>Transition is Delayed/Fails") is a contentious parade of horribles if<br>ever I saw one!<br><br>Setting that aside as merely disputatious, page 5 ("4 Remaining<br>Questions<br>on The Road to Transition") is interesting.<br><br>Firstly, the framing - that these are indeed the questions, and the only<br>gating questions, is certainly open to debate. But the answers don't<br>currently point to swift completion either.<br><br>Here is my assessment.<br><br>Q. "Do we have broad agreement on ALL the elements to address the CWG<br>Dependencies?"<br><br>A. Within CCWG, using its proposal as the base: yes.<br>Between CCWG and Board, on the Board's counter-proposal: Not really.<br>There is no agreement as to whether the power to challenge the Budget<br>and Strategic Plan would be effectively available in the absence of<br>the SMM,<br>which the Board opposes. Our Counsel raises key concerns about this in<br>their recent memo comparing the Board proposal with our own.<br>And this power (or some variant) is noted as being a CWG requirement.<br><br>Q. "Do we have broad agreement on the requirements and enforceability of<br>the five community powers?"<br><br>A. Within CCWG, on its proposal: yes.<br>Between CCWG and Board, on the Board's counter-proposal: No. The<br>enforceability<br>of the five community powers in the absence of the SMM is a<br>significant area<br>of disagreement; there is no agreement within CCWG that the MEM is an<br>effective<br>alternative means to ensure enforceability.<br><br>Q "Are the above areas of broad agreement consistent with NTIA<br>criteria and do<br>they meet the requirements for a safe/secure transition of U.S.<br>Government stewardship?"<br><br>A. Within CCWG, we are content that our proposal would achieve this.<br>Between CCWG and Board, neither party accepts that the other's<br>proposal would<br>achieve satisfy the NTIA criteria. For the Board, the CCWG's reforms<br>pose<br>a risk to "safe and secure" stability of ICANN; for CCWG, the removal<br>of NTIA<br>oversight without its replacement by accountability mechanisms that it<br>agrees<br>to be effective and enforceable poses just as great a risk, and of<br>like kind. Moreover,<br>the Board's counter-proposal omits or reduces* safeguards the CCWG<br>thought<br>necessary to guarantee the openness of the Internet, another NTIA<br>requirement.<br><br> [* Discussion on this hasn't yet concluded; the Board might argue<br>that it<br> offers adequate alternatives, and while some in CCWG may have<br>arrived at<br> a firm conclusion to the contrary; others may be yet to make up<br>their minds.<br> What cannot be contested is that the CCWG as a whole has not has<br>not yet<br> accepted the adequacy of the Board's counter in relation to this<br>particular<br> NTIA criterion, which stands independently and complementary to<br>the "safe and<br> secure" criterion. See also below for comments on the need for a<br>systematic<br> re-evaluation.]<br><br>Q. Do we have broad agreement on an assured process to continuously<br>improve ICANN¹s<br>accountability and evolve its governance structure?<br><br>A. Not really. CCWG has tasked itself with addressing in WS1 only<br>those items that<br>must be addressed before transition, and has chosen to leave<br>everything else to a<br>WS2 that it trusts will be continued. The Board seemingly proposes<br>closing down CCWG upon<br>transition, ending WS2 as a distinct programme and leaving those<br>issues to be<br>addressed by disparate parts of the community (although it is not<br>clear that the<br>SOs even have the capacity to initiate proposals on all WS2 issues).<br>So there is<br>no agreement between CCWG and the Board on the process for continuous<br>improvement<br>either.<br><br>Once again, an overview from ICANN that seems intended to force the<br>pace actually<br>shows how much still remains to be agreed. Perhaps this will persuade<br>the Board to<br>rethink its opposition to the considered view of the community, worked<br>on by this<br>group so intensively for almost a year.<br><br>One thing the slidedeck does usefully point up is that before agreeing<br>to abandon its<br>proposal in favour of the Board's counter, even if it were minded to<br>do so, CCWG<br>would need to do a full re-evaluation against the NTIA criteria and<br>stress tests<br>to determine its adequacy. Our assessment of how our proposal<br>satisfies the stress tests<br>is only an assessment of OUR proposal, not of the Board's counter.<br><br>Accordingly, if the Board remains unwilling to accept the<br>cross-community proposal,<br>this slidedeck suggests to me that expectations management, rather<br>than "racing<br>to the finish line", is the more prudent course of action.<br><br>That further demonstrates how unhelpful and counter-productive is the<br>scaremongering<br>on page 4.<br><br>Malcolm.<br><br><br></blockquote><br><br>---<br>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus" target="_blank">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br></blockquote><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></span></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><font color="#888888"><blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif">
<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">web: </span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br></i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453" target="_blank"> </a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your action!<br></blockquote></blockquote></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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