<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">David,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The line you are drawing is not accurate and does not reflect current reality or past practice. You are trying to move a line, not "preserve" it. Your interpretation of what it means for a domain name to be "directly or indirectly used" flies in the face of the UDRP, among other things. It is clear that the manner in which a domain is used must look at the website associated with that domain name. Indeed the UDRP is set up so that the registration alone, without use, is generally insufficient to bring a UDRP case</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If you are going to try and rewrite and re-interpret 3.7.7.9 to fit your narrow definition of scope, that is completely outside what we can or should be doing in this group.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 11:04 AM, David Post <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:david.g.post@gmail.com" target="_blank">david.g.post@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><span class="">
At 10:42 AM 11/23/2015, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote type="cite"><span class="">Clearly, this shows that this is
an attempt to rewrite ICANN's mission, rather than an attempt to avoid
mission creep.<br>
Just like 3.7.7.9 has been with us since the beginning of (ICANN) time,
the policy disputes that underlie this attempt have been with us since
the beginning of (ICANN) time.<br></span>
The Accountability effort is an inappropriate place to try and score
points in these disputes. Â <br><span class="">
It's both good and unfortunate that this is becoming clear -- good that
it is becoming clear, unfortunate because of the
timing.</span></blockquote><br>
I (strongly) disagree. I think that it's quite critical that we try
to articulate why things like 3.7.7.9 are IN SCOPE, so that we allow
ICANN to continue to do those things BUT ONLY those things.<br><br>
3.7.7.9 concerns the registration and use of names. <br><br>
"neither the registration of the Registered Name nor the manner in
which IT is directly or indirectly used infringes the legal rights of any
third party ..."<br><br>
The "it" is important. When I registered <a href="http://davidpost.com" target="_blank">davidpost.com</a>, I
did NOT make a promise to the registry, at ICANN's behest, that I would
not do anything at the website I operate at that address that
"infringes the legal rights of any third party." I
might defraud buyers, or defame my political opponents, or infringe
someone's copyright - none of which is of ICANN's concern.
<br><br>
What I did promise was that my use of the <a href="http://davidpost.com" target="_blank">davidpost.com</a> name would not
infringe the rights of any third party - that the name
"<a href="http://davidpost.com" target="_blank">davidpost.com</a>," for instance, does not infringe someone's
trademark or copyright rights. <br><br>
This is precisely the line we're trying to preserve. ICANN CAN
regulate the names (i.e. what strings can be used as names, who gets
which names) - of course, only with policies "developed through a
bottom-up, consensus-based multi-stakeholder process" - but
NOT what people do with the names. <br><br>
David<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="">Greg<br><br>
On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Burr, Becky
<<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz" target="_blank">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>
> wrote:
</span><dl>
<dd>Are we seriously arguing that RAA 3.7.7.9 is outside the picket
fence? Â <br>
</dd><dd>Section 3.7.7.9 of the RAA has been in place from the beginning of
time. Here is the language from the 2001 RAA:<span class=""><br><br>
<dl>
<dd>3.7.7.9 The Registered Name Holder shall represent that, to the best
of the Registered Name Holder's knowledge and belief, neither the
registration of the Registered Name nor the manner in which it is
directly or indirectly used infringes the legal rights of any third
party.<br><br>
</dd></dl>
</span></dd><dd><span class="">Here it is in the <font color="#FF0000">1999 RAA</font>:<br><br>
</span><dl>
<dd>7. g. The SLD holder shall represent that, to the best of the SLD
holder's knowledge and belief, neither the registration of the SLD name
nor the manner in which it is directly or indirectly used infringes the
legal rights of a third party.<br>
<br><br>
</dd></dl>
</dd><dd><font face="Calibri">As someone who was part of the team drafting and
negotiating the 1999 RAA, I can assure you that the inclusion of this
requirement in the RAA was intended to be within the scope of ICANN’s
Mission.</font><br>
</dd><dd>J. Beckwith Burr
</dd><dd><span class="">Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
</span></dd><dd><span class="">1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006
</span></dd><dd>Office: <a href="tel:%2B1.202.533.2932" target="_blank">+1.202.533.2932</a>Â
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B1.202.352.6367" target="_blank">+1.202.352.6367</a> /
<a href="http://www.neustar.biz" target="_blank">neustar.biz</a><br>
</dd><dd>From: Alan Greenberg
<<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>
>
</dd><dd><span class="">Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:06 PM
</span></dd><dd><span class="">To: "Silver, Bradley"
<<a href="mailto:Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com" target="_blank">
Bradley.Silver@timewarner.com</a>>, Greg Shatan
<<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>
>, "Mueller, Milton L"
<<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>
</span></dd><dd>Cc: Accountability Community
<<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br>
</dd><dd><span class="">Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Board comments on the Mission statement<br>
</span></dd><dd><span class="">I rarely fill people's mailboxes just to do this, but in this
case;<br>
</span></dd><dd>+1<br>
</dd><dd>Alan<br>
<br>
</dd><dd><span class="">At 22/11/2015 08:31 PM, Silver, Bradley wrote:<br><br>
</span><blockquote type="cite">
<dd>I want to echo and support Gregâ€ââ„¢s response below.Â
Milton̢۪s position thathat an existing provision of the RAA is out of
the scope of ICANN’s mission is illuminating. I had been
operating on the (hhopeful) presumption that what we were attempting to
do was find a way to describe ICANN̢۪s mission in a manner that
reflects its current activitieties, and avoid drafting anything that
could adversely impact its continued ability to do so while clearly
preventing any undue expansion.  If those who support the
language in the second sentence are seeking a way to attack the validity
or enforceability of existing contractual provisions, then the concerns
of the board are not only well founded, they are grossly
understated.Â
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd><span class="">From:
<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> [
<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Greg Shatan
</span></dd><dd><span class="">Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 3:01 AM
</span></dd><dd>To: Mueller, Milton L
</dd><dd>Cc: Accountability Cross Community
</dd><dd><span class="">Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Board comments on the Mission statement
</span></dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd>Milton,
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd>I strongly disagree that 3.7.7 is out of scope of ICANN's
mission. I also don't think it's useless, nor is it an uncommon
provision in many terms of service and similar agreements. 3.7.7
only asks for the registrant's "knowledge and belief" -- so
they are not required to know whether they are infringing anywhere under
any jurisdiction. They are only required to make reference to what
they already know -- an entirely reasonable and ordinary requirement.
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd>Is it your intent that the new provision we are discussing places
3.7.7 out of scope, and thus serves as a basis for an IRP or other
challenge seeking to nullify 3.7.7? Since 3.7.7 is only an
"example," what other sections are you trying to place out of
scope?
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd>Thanks.
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd>Greg
</dd><dd>Â
</dd><dd><span class="">On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Mueller, Milton L
<<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></dd><dd>> -----Original Message-----
</dd><dd>>
</dd><dd><span class="">> See section 3.7.7 of the registrar accreditation agreement
(RAA):
</span></dd><dd>>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_approved-2Dwith-2Dspecs-2D2013-2D09-2D17-2Den&d=CwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=11R4XkcvGwOIsQkhhyE47Z7B829g9E2Cip1amJSBQu0&s=5ThaiusaRSYwZuxG3vlUf8hTsMh251yjw_-T7i4DOFg&e=" target="_blank">
https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en</a>
</dd><dd>>
</dd><dd><span class="">> 3.7.7.9 The Registered Name Holder shall represent that, to the
best of the
</span></dd><dd><span class="">> Registered Name Holder's knowledge and belief, neither the
registration of
</span></dd><dd><span class="">> the Registered Name nor the manner in which it is directly or
indirectly used
</span></dd><dd><span class="">> infringes the legal rights of any third party.<br>
</span></dd><dd>Bruce: this is a good example of how the RAA is currently out of
scope. To begin with, it is a completely useless element of the RAA. This
statement does not stop anyone from doing anything, and it does not
require ICANN to determine whether a registrant is infringing someone's
rights. And how is anyone supposed to know whether the way they use a
domain infringes the legal rights of a third party - anywhere in the
world, under any jurisdiction? They cannot know this until
and unless someone asserts those rights against them in a legal
system which has jurisdiction and can make a legal determination. Or do
we want ICANN to be making this determination? Most would agree that we
do not. So what is the purpose, other than to invite ICANN to impose
controls or regulations on virtually anything that happens on the
internet?<br><br>
</dd><dd>_______________________________________________
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*******************************<br>
David G Post - Senior Fellow, Open Technology Institute/New America
Foundation<br>
blog (Volokh Conspiracy)
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/people/david-post" target="_blank">
http://www.washingtonpost.com/people/david-post<br>
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<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div>