<div dir="ltr">Dear Kavouss - I wish you would be right but unfortunately the most recent European Court of Justice rulings point in a different direction. Happy to talk about this, <div>Erika</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Kavouss Arasteh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Dear All</div><div>European decision in this regard could only be applied by 28 countries Member of EU</div><div>Extraterritoriality Law can not be applied elsewhere</div><div>Regards</div><div>Kavouss <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 21:49, Erika Mann <<a href="mailto:erika@erikamann.com" target="_blank">erika@erikamann.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Martin - just to be clear the European Court of Justice introduced the extraterritoriality concept into EU law making with regard to human rights standards. Take for example the most recent ruling about the validity of the Safe Harbor agreement. <div><br></div><div>Erika</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Martin Boyle <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Martin.Boyle@nominet.uk" target="_blank">Martin.Boyle@nominet.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Nigel, you seem to be advocating US interpretation of human rights, which in turn would imply a degree of extraterritoriality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That should not be the case for ccTLDs as Eberhard points out, but it might be a big issue for geo-TLDs, too.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that "applicable law" is the best formulation for where we are and WS2 can have the joy of interpreting what are the implications of that. Let's leave such a difficult discussion to then.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Martin </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Martin Boyle<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Senior Policy Advisor<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Sent from my iPhone</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><img width="165" height="23" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01D0FCF7.DEE0F1F0"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font color="#000000"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><a href="http://nominet.uk/" target="_blank"><b>nominet.uk</b></a><b> </b>DD: <a href="tel:+44%20(0)1865%20332251" target="_blank">+44
(0)1865 332251</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Minerva House, Edmund Halley Road, Oxford, OX4 4DQ, United Kingdom</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div>
<div><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 13:58, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <<a href="mailto:el@lisse.na" target="_blank">el@lisse.na</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>And,</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>it does so for gTLDs only.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>el</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>On 2016-03-02 15:42 , Nigel Roberts wrote:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>As you rightly say, I am foreshadowing WS2.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>But I am also renewing my strong objection to the "applicable law"</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>formulation, for the following reason.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>It's quite valid to comment, in response, that ICANN *already* regulates</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>the takedown of domain names in the protection of third-party rights -</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>the protection of intellectual property.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>That is all well and good, and is a worthy step in the protection of</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>that person/organisations rights under (for example) Art. 1, Prot.1 of</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>the ECHR -- provided it is balanced against the rights to free</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>expression and due process.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>But it's not hard to see that the "applicable law" scenarion could be</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>misused to impose controls on content.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>For example, the right to privacy and the right to free expression</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>intersect in different places in different countries.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>This is the well-known "margin of appreciation" in Human Rights</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>jurisprudence.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>So, ICANN, by binding itself to 'applicable law' would potentially bind</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>itself to breaching the First Amendment, by having a by-law obligation</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>to 'applicable law' in say the UK (libel), France (celebrity) or China</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>(respect for authority).</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>On 02/03/16 13:20, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía wrote:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Hi Nigel,</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>This will be an interesting discussion on our WS2 work plan.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>I fail to see why or how ICANN would be obliged to develop such</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>policies as ICANN is not an entity with (legal) powers to take down</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>any kind of content. The only situation in which I see ICANN taking</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>down a site, as opposed to a particular content within a website, is</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>in case a Court ordered such take down which, in my mind at least,</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>would be subject to different applicable norms in the context of</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>international cooperation I think, and for that Court order to be</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>escalated to ICANN level I would think it would need to be taken</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>through the path of registrant-registrar-registry before even getting</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>to ICANN but that is just an assumption, of course.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Best regards,</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>León</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>El 29/02/2016, a las 8:26 p.m., Nigel Roberts</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span><<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>> escribió:</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-35685999" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-35685999</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>This tells me that the right to free expression is one which ICANN</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>should respect, and not merely 'as required by applicable law'.</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>It seems to me that 'applicable law' here would have ICANN institute</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>policies allowing for takedown of the material that is contained in</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>the books referred to in this article, would it not?</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<span></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>