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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 19 June 2016 09:17 PM, Phil
Corwin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">snip<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
own views on this subject are quite clear – see
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.circleid.com/posts/20160523_the_irritating_irresolution_of_icann_jurisdiction/">http://www.circleid.com/posts/20160523_the_irritating_irresolution_of_icann_jurisdiction/</a>
:</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Phil, I now have some time to respond to your below points as well.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For
the sake of legal clarity and organizational stability, it
is incumbent upon WS2 participants to resolve this matter
as soon as feasible — and to come down decisively in favor
of a permanent link between ICANN and U.S. jurisdiction.
If this were a matter of first impression then impartial
consideration of an alternative national jurisdiction
might be in order. But it is a not a matter of first
impression, and multiple factors weigh in favor of
enshrining ICANN's permanent status as a California
non-profit corporation in a Fundamental Bylaw:<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">ICANN
has embodied California non-profit status since its
founding in 1998<o:p></o:p></span></i></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">With
the EC and PTI required to be California non-profits by
revised Fundamental Bylaws, an inconsistent status for
ICANN itself could raise confounding legal and policy
issues for both accountability and control</span></i></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<i>When we are talking about changing the very incorporation of
ICANN, changing its fundamental bylaws is a rather small matter in
comparison. </i><i>A ICANN under a new jurisdiction is legally a
new body, although it could carry along all the baggage - good and
bad - that it "wants" to carry from the earlier avataar, to
maintain the obviously needed continuity. But then changing
fundamental bylaws in such a context is not such a big problem. <br>
<br>
<br>
</i>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></i><br>
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
accountability plan has been designed to be maximally
effective in the context of California law</span></i></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<i>Well, in that case ( also following from your above point), are
you saying that the claim by those conducting the transition
process that the jurisdiction question is still open is basically
a bluff? Anyway, we have the essential design of the
accountability plan and it can be made to work in any new
jurisdiction as easily, especially an international one which will
be based on newly created and tailor-made international law which
can incorporate this plan. <br>
<br>
</i>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></i><br>
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
U.S. legal system is well regarded for its dedication to
objective determinations under the rule of law</span></i></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<i>Actually, I like the Indian legal system :). (It for instance
does not think corporates have human rights on par with natural
persons :). I am referring to the Citizens United case.). the
'law' under which the US legal system makes objective
determinations is the US law, which is different from, say, the
Indian law. The outcome of objective determinations will differ
according to which law is employed. That is the point. I would
much like my claims with regard to the global DNS to be
adjudicated under a law in which I have some kind of role in
making, and consider legitimate to apply to me - so I think would
be for all non US people. That would either be one's own country
law or international law. <br>
<br>
</i>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></i><br>
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Perhaps
most importantly, the First Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution guarantees that the U.S. government cannot
take actions that would coerce ICANN into using its root
zone control to abridge free speech.</span></i></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You are disregarding the number of websites seized under various
pretexts by US gov, by ordering the concerned registries. (And the
drastic though indirect steps taken to close down wikileaks.) If now
it is a gTLD - with thousands of them granted - that falls foul of
the same US authorities for a similar cause, no registry can help,
and so the same order will go to ICANN to remove the offending gTLD.
(Can you refute this line of argument? ) It is simply the US law,
that MUST be enforced, multistakeholderist niceties aside.
Therefore, excuse my words, but such statements as you make about
the superiority of US law are mere propaganda that no one outside
the US takes seriously. Though you are allowed your patriotism :). <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8E84A14FB84B8141B0E4713BAFF5B84E2102CA94@Exchange.sierracorporation.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></i></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
snip<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Philip
S. Corwin, Founding Principal</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Virtualaw
LLC</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">1155
F Street, NW</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Suite
1050</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Washington,
DC 20004</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-559-8597/Direct</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-559-8750/Fax</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-255-6172/Cell</span></b><b><span
style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Twitter:
@VlawDC</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">"Luck
is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 19, 2016 3:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seun Ojedeji<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The Economist | A
virtual turf war: The scramble for .africa<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sunday 19 June 2016 12:11 PM, Seun
Ojedeji wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Hello Parminder,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As an African, I would tend to agree with your point and
wish that your conclusion point was the case (as a reactive
measure). However as you know, we have discussed this
extensively in the past (on different fora) and we found
that the means to the end of such is so complicated and the
end itself would ultimately create a govt lead ICANN which i
certainly don't want.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
If ICANN functioning under California non profit law - made by
government - and subject to US jurisdiction - also made of and
by governments (and governments alone) - can continue to be
seem and treated as a multistakeholder organisation, to your
and others' satisfaction, there is simply no reason why ICANN
cannot be and function similarly under international
jurisdiction, created by international law.<br>
<br>
Your preferring US law/ jurisdiction over international law/
jurisdiction is, simply and nothing more than, a statement of
your preferring the US jurisdiction over international
jurisdiction ( which, while you have a right to your choices,
I consider democratically unfortunate). None is less complex
that the other. There are hundreds of international
organisations functioning under international law, and so can
ICANN. And if ICANN has some special contexts and needs, that
would be met by relevant innovations in international law, but
not by a democratic regression to subjecting the world to the
US law. Democracy is precious, and people have done much to
achieve it. Please dont treat it lightly, citing
technicalities against it. That is extremely unfortunate.
Sorry for the analogy but it directly applies; every tyrant/
dictator is prone to argue that democracy is messy, and
difficult and, as you say, complicated. But such an argument
does not carry, does it.<br>
<br>
To call an ICANN which is constituted under US law, and fully
answerable to US jurisdiction (meaning US government, its all
branches), as fully multistakeholder;<br>
<br>
and, at the same time, an ICANN functioning exactly in the
same manner, but now under international law and jurisdiction,
as (to quote you) becoming a government let ICANN
<br>
<br>
is simply to make a misleading statement. <br>
<br>
Although, the fallacy contained in it is as clear as daylight,
among status quoists circles this statement or argument
continues to be made and re-made. But, for other than the
fully converted and therefore impervious to simple logic, and
demands of that high value of democracy, it takes away
nothing from the my arguments regarding the unfairness of
ICANN being subject to US jurisdiction, and the urgent need to
move it to international jurisdiction, which you are right, I
have often made on various fora, and will keep making. It is a
political act. <br>
<br>
regards, parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Regards<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 19 Jun 2016 07:28, "parminder" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sunday 19 June 2016 11:31 AM,
Jordan Carter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I may have missed something,
Parminder, but isn't it a plus rather than a
negative for ICANN accountability that process
errors can be appealed and the company held to
account for them?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Jordan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In may make ICANN accountable, but to a
system that is unaccountable to the global public, and is
only accountable to the US public (there could even be
cases where these two could be in partial conflict) - that
in sum is the jurisdiction issue. ICANN accountability
issue is different, though linked, bec it has to be
accountable, but to the right system, which itself is
accountable to the global public. Different 'layers' of
accountability are implicated here, as people in IG space
will like to say! <br>
<br>
Here the issue is, a US court has no right to
(exclusively) adjudicate the rights of the African people,
bec African people had no part in making or legitimising
the system that the US court is a part of. Dont you see
what problem we will be facing if the US court says that
fairness of process or whatever demands that .africa goes
to DCA. If you were an African, what would you feel?<br>
<br>
An ICANN under international law will be subject to only
an international judicial process, which Africa is equally
a part of, and gives legitimacy to.
<br>
<span style="color:#888888"><br>
parminder </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jordan<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 19 June 2016 at 07:26,
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sunday 19 June 2016 04:13
AM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>The Economist | A virtual turf war: The
scramble for .africa <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21700661-lawyers-california-are-denying-africans-their-own-domain-scramble?frsc=dg%7Cd">
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21700661-lawyers-california-are-denying-africans-their-own-domain-scramble?frsc=dg%7Cd</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Not that this fact is being discovered now, but it
still is the simplest and clearest proof that US
jurisdiction over ICANN's policy processes and
decisions is absolutely untenable. Either the US
makes a special legal provision unilaterally
foregoing judicial, legislative and executive
jurisdiction over ICANN policy functions, or the
normal route of ICANN's incorporation under
international law is taken, making ICANN an
international organisation under international
law, and protected from US jurisdiction under a
host country agreement. <br>
<span style="color:#888888"><br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Paul Rosenzweig<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jordan Carter <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wellington, New Zealand<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649"
target="_blank">+64 21 442 649</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jordan@jordancarter.org.nz"
target="_blank">jordan@jordancarter.org.nz</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">No
virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4604/12441 - Release
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