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<p>+ 1 well said Robin.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUQDvrkBN76FAXt+OOYmfcJ6hwRPz8a3Cb-a2MOTrdxEvA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Robin,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Agree 100%.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greg<span></span><br>
<br>
On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">It is simply
a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to
independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to
understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all
over again even came from. We have very important issues on
our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal
advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the
DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the
policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is
silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those
who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would
be counter-productive to our goals.<br>
<br>
Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that
ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s
independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house
efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to
the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is
extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together.
We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we
cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is
outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes
must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the
proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it
was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a
blank check to spend resisting our reforms.<br>
<br>
This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or
everything else we try to do from here on out will be of
questionable value. This settled debate should not be
re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to
succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this
critical matter of independence of legal advice.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Robin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'lists@nielstenoever.net')">lists@nielstenoever.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James<br>
><br>
> On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:<br>
>> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.<br>
>><br>
>> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent
advice. Also agree<br>
>> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler &
Colvin is the best option.<br>
>><br>
>> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening
the debate.<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>><br>
>> Tanya<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
>>> Siva,<br>
>>><br>
>>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go
back and read all of the<br>
>>> materials and discussions relating to our desire
and choice to hire<br>
>>> independent counsel. If you have any specific
questions after that,<br>
>>> please ask them.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I will briefly say the following:<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence,
although being generally<br>
>>> competent and competent in a specific area are
two different things.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or
history, we've turned to<br>
>>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That
won't change. Advice<br>
>>> is another thing entirely.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?"
and you will have<br>
>>> answered your own question.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Greg<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'isolatedn@gmail.com')">isolatedn@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'isolatedn@gmail.com')">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Greg,<br>
>>><br>
>>> How valid are your assumptions? What are the
reasons for this<br>
>>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who
are competent, have<br>
>>> first hand knowledge and a complete
understanding of the legal<br>
>>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I
ask? Saves money on<br>
>>> most matters requiring legal advice, and
should there be areas<br>
>>> that require specialized advice, we could seek
external advice.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'gregshatanipc@gmail.com')">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'gregshatanipc@gmail.com')">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>');>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I object, and I think many others
objected, to the idea that<br>
>>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal)
should be the<br>
>>> "default." We retained independent
counsel to the CCWG for<br>
>>> good reason<br>
>>> s<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> and those reasons are still applicable
today. I hope we don't<br>
>>> need to rehash that.<br>
>>><br>
>>> We need the continued ability and
discretion to go directly to<br>
>>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to
solicit an opinion from<br>
>>> an external counsel is not only
"cumbersome," it's absolutely<br>
>>> antithetical to the relationship between
CCWG and its<br>
>>> independent counsel.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I strongly believe that the "default" must
be the status quo,<br>
>>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable
processes) has the<br>
>>> ability and discretion to turn to its own
counsel. Further, I<br>
>>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent
counsel must remain<br>
>>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin.
They have been up a<br>
>>> tremendous learning curve and worked with
us every step of the<br>
>>> way. It would be folly to cast that
aside. It's worth noting<br>
>>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm
with offices outside<br>
>>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong
Kong, London,<br>
>>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and
Tokyo. I'm confident<br>
>>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us
when they don't have<br>
>>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work
with us on working<br>
>>> methods to make our use of the firms more
cost-effective.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Greg<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph
Daniel<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'rudi.daniel@gmail.com')">rudi.daniel@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'rudi.daniel@gmail.com')">rudi.daniel@gmail.com</a>');>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Based on comments on the call today,
IMO; A good body of<br>
>>> knowledge was accquired on the subject
of legal requests<br>
>>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be
both inhouse and<br>
>>> external, from start, We should be
much more efficient<br>
>>> this time around. Each sub however
will have their needs<br>
>>> and there may be requests applicable
across the subgroups<br>
>>> and/or specific to a subgroup.<br>
>>> So, that suggests close relationship
between budget<br>
>>> control and the former legal request
team [reconfigured<br>
>>> and/or augmented] who would have to
coordinate requests<br>
>>> across ws2 sub<br>
>>> groups as i see it.<br>
>>> What determines the initial choice
inhouse/external<br>
>>> resources may be a matter of
consensus, but it may be<br>
>>> prudent to consider the process as
[default] inhouse with<br>
>>> the flexible and necessary option of
external sources by<br>
>>> consensus [as the fog clears so to
speak]. I think it may<br>
>>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to
solicit an opinion<br>
>>> from an external, because there may
arise an instance<br>
>>> where; on the strength of an opinion,
[inhouse or<br>
>>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe
and seek<br>
>>> alternative advise elswhere.<br>
>>> rd<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Rudi Daniel<br>
>>> /danielcharles consulting<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774"
target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774</a>>/<br>
>>> *<br>
>>> *<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay
Kesari<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'vinay.kesari@gmail.com')">vinay.kesari@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'vinay.kesari@gmail.com')">vinay.kesari@gmail.com</a>');>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear all,<br>
>>><br>
>>> I was unfortunately unable to join
the call as I was<br>
>>> on a flight at the time, my
apologies. I've just had a<br>
>>> chance to catch up on the Adobe
Connect recording, and<br>
>>> I'm happy to reconfirm my
willingness and availability<br>
>>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I
agree with the<br>
>>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at
0:24:30, and affirm my<br>
>>> commitment to serve impartially. I
look forward to<br>
>>> working with Greg on the
jurisdiction subgroup.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Separately, on the issue of
allocation of legal<br>
>>> requests, I agree that we need
further discussion, and<br>
>>> endorse creating an Option 3 based
on the points made<br>
>>> and the specific requirements of
the different WS2<br>
>>> subgroups.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Regards,<br>
>>> Vinay<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu
Weill<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'mathieu.weill@afnic.fr')">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml', 'mathieu.weill@afnic.fr')">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>');>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear Colleagues,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Attached is a short set of
slides to support our<br>
>>> discussion on agenda item #4<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Talk to you in a few hours<br>
>>><br>
>>> Mathieu<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *De :*<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org')">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
>>>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org')">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>');><br>
>>> [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org')">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
>>>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org')">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>');>]<br>
>>> *De la part de* MSSI
Secretariat<br>
>>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet
2016 19:46<br>
>>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability<br>
>>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed
Agenda CCWG ACCT<br>
>>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00
UTC<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Good day all,<br>
>>><br>
>>> In preparation for your call,
CCWG Accountability<br>
>>> WS2 Meeting #2<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw</a>>–
Tuesday,<br>
>>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC.
Time zone converter<br>
>>> here<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2"
target="_blank">http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *Proposed Agenda:*<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. Welcome, SOI<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2.<br>
>>> Articles of Incorporation :
finalize submission<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3.<br>
>>> Appointment of rapporteurs
for WS2 – next steps<br>
>>><br>
>>> 4.<br>
>>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism
: initial discussion<br>
>>><br>
>>> 5. AOB<br>
>>><br>
>>> 6. Closing<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *Adobe Connect:<br>
>>> *<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/"
target="_blank">https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/</a><br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/"
target="_blank">https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Thank you!<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> With kind regards,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Brenda Brewer<br>
>>><br>
>>> MSSI Projects & Operations
Assistant<br>
>>><br>
>>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation
for Assigned Names<br>
>>> and Numbers<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community
mailing list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>>>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community
mailing list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing
list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing
list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>>> <<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml">javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml</a>','<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
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>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> Sivasubramanian M <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:;"
onclick="_e(event, 'cvml',
'Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org')">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Niels ten Oever<br>
> Head of Digital<br>
><br>
> Article 19<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.article19.org" target="_blank">www.article19.org</a><br>
><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--------------
Matthew Shears
Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
+ 44 771 2472987</pre>
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