<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Dear All</div><div>Once again we need yo take on board positive parts of each option and not to stick to any single option as none of them reconcile the divergence views.</div><div>I am against any default concept</div><div>Moreover by external legal council it does not necessarily means external but American Legal council.</div><div>We may need to serk legal views Outside the Legal US </div><div>Kavouss<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On 17 Jul 2016, at 00:41, Marilyn Cade <<a href="mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com">marilynscade@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div dir="ltr">Paul, thanks for your response to my comments.<div><br></div><div>I started my engagement in 1997, then 1998 when it was 'newco' and I am quite well experienced with ICANN outside counsel and ICANN inside counsel, over ... let me count the years, now.</div><div><br></div><div>:-)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>And I have been consistently engaged. As all of you know. I cannot deny that I have been a critic of ICANN both externally, but I always made sure that my criticism was a critique, not an attack.as I believe strongly [and I will make a strong comment here that some, over the years have preferred to throw stones, rather using those to build bridges and foundations]. Fortunately, over the last several months, and now, we are using those stones to build the foundation for the future we all want for ICANN.</div><div><br></div><div>However, but I cannot support this statement at all. I do not see you evidence of that, and I read everything you folks do on the CCWG. I made a decision to only participate as I am extremely consumed with the IGF where I am the Substantive Coordinator, appointed by the IGF MAG Chair, to build up the engagement of the national and regional Initiatives of the IGF. At that level there is high interest in the broader issues of Internet Governance, and ICANN is 'one' only one, and often not even the primary ONE, issue in Internet Governance. </div><div><br></div><div>The work that the CCWG is doing is fantastic, but I hope that you and others will understand that over the years, there is strong evidence of the inside counsel, the outside counsel doing excellent work. </div><div><br></div><div>I still support the extraordinary option of additional counsel/ourside, for the community.</div><div><br></div><div>In fact, I proposed much earlier that there by an outside independent counsel to the Board, to advise on the public interest accountability of their role. </div><div><br></div><div>:-)</div><div><br></div><div>You might think about supporting that idea. That would create a standing balance to advise the Board. </div><div><br></div><div>Not binding but independent.</div><div><br></div><div>I however do not agree with your quite negative and broad statement that does not recognize the integrity and good work of both inside and outside counsel, since 1998 when I helped to found this organization.</div><div><br></div><div>M <br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: <a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com">marilynscade@hotmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>Subject: RE: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC<br>Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 17:31:03 -0400<br><br><style><!--
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--></style><div class="ecxWordSection1"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">I am sorry Marilyn, but given their performance to date, I do make that assumption – ICANN Legal and especially outside counsel have over the last two years performed poorly. We can blink that reality if we wish, but their advice is routinely biased and not trustworthy as to the interests of the CCWG and the EC of the future.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Paul Rosenzweig</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><span style="color:#0563C1;">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">O: +1 (202) 547-0660</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">M: +1 (202) 329-9650</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1;">www.redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">My PGP Key: <a href="http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1;">http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/</span></a> <u><span style="color:#0563C1;"></span></u></span></p></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marilyn Cade<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 15, 2016 8:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>; farzaneh badii <<a href="mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC</span></p></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Can I ask that we re think this.</span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">This is a CCWG. We will return to usual days, right. maybe sometime in the near future.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">When CCWG needs independent counsel is one thing. BUT we should not be assuming that ICANN retained or internal counsel is either biased, or evil, or not trustworthy. Really. having hired [and okay, fired] a lot of legal teams in my career days in corporation, I suggest you focus on when you as CCWG need outside counsel not always assume that you need outside counsel.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">But remember, I supported the CCWG having independent counsel, and I defended the extra cost. And I do, </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">but let's be judicious.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">M</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><div class="ecxMsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center" id="ecxstopSpelling"></span></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:14:28 +0100<br>From: <a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Hello,</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Regards<br>Sent from my LG G4<br>Kindly excuse brevity and typos</span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <<a href="mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;"><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">No. Using the independent legal advisers <u>responsibly</u> does not mean that we have to have a default approach.</span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution? </span></p></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">+1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted). </span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Regards<br>Sent from my LG G4<br>Kindly excuse brevity and typos</span></p><div><div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <<a href="mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com" target="_blank">jbladel@godaddy.com</a>> wrote:</span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;"><div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">Agree with Keith. </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks—</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">J.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"><<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Keith Drazek <<a href="mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com" target="_blank">kdrazek@verisign.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 <br><b>To: </b>Phil Corwin <<a href="mailto:psc@vlaw-dc.com" target="_blank">psc@vlaw-dc.com</a>>, Matthew Shears <<a href="mailto:mshears@cdt.org" target="_blank">mshears@cdt.org</a>>, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>Accountability Cross Community <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Regards,<br>Keith</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><a name="m_5364275494220703007_m_1396268374658550" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span></a><span style=""></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black;"> <a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Phil Corwin<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross<br><b>Cc:</b> Accountability Cross Community<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Use your power, Empowered Community</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div><div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal<br>Virtualaw LLC<br>1155 F Street NW<br>Suite 1050<br>Washington, DC 20004<br>202-559-8597/Direct<br>202-559-8750/Fax<br>202-255-6172/Cell<br><br>Twitter: @VlawDC<br><br>"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"></span></p></div></div><div><table class="ecxMsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width:100.0%;background:white;"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:mshears@cdt.org" target="_blank">mshears@cdt.org</a></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">July 14, 2016 5:26 PM</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community@icann.org</a></span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;">Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC</span></p></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">+ 1 well said Robin.</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:</span></p></div><blockquote style=""><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">Robin, </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">Agree 100%.</span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">Greg<br><br>On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>> wrote:</span></p><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.<br><br>Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.<br><br>This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Robin<br><br><br><br>> On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <<a href="mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net" target="_blank">lists@nielstenoever.net</a>> wrote:<br>><br>> Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James<br>><br>> On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:<br>>> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.<br>>><br>>> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree<br>>> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.<br>>><br>>> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.<br>>><br>>> Best,<br>>><br>>> Tanya<br>>><br>>><br>>> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>>>> Siva,<br>>>><br>>>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the<br>>>> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire<br>>>> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that,<br>>>> please ask them.<br>>>><br>>>> I will briefly say the following:<br>>>><br>>>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally<br>>>> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.<br>>>><br>>>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to<br>>>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice<br>>>> is another thing entirely.<br>>>><br>>>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have<br>>>> answered your own question.<br>>>><br>>>> Greg<br>>>><br>>>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a><br>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> Greg,<br>>>><br>>>> How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this<br>>>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have<br>>>> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal<br>>>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask? Saves money on<br>>>> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas<br>>>> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>');>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that<br>>>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the<br>>>> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for<br>>>> good reason<br>>>> s<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't<br>>>> need to rehash that.<br>>>><br>>>> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to<br>>>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from<br>>>> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely<br>>>> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its<br>>>> independent counsel.<br>>>><br>>>> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo,<br>>>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the<br>>>> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I<br>>>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain<br>>>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a<br>>>> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the<br>>>> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting<br>>>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside<br>>>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London,<br>>>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident<br>>>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have<br>>>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working<br>>>> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.<br>>>><br>>>> Greg<br>>>><br>>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">rudi.daniel@gmail.com</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">rudi.daniel@gmail.com</a>');>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of<br>>>> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests<br>>>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and<br>>>> external, from start, We should be much more efficient<br>>>> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs<br>>>> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups<br>>>> and/or specific to a subgroup.<br>>>> So, that suggests close relationship between budget<br>>>> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured<br>>>> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests<br>>>> across ws2 sub<br>>>> groups as i see it.<br>>>> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external<br>>>> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be<br>>>> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with<br>>>> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by<br>>>> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may<br>>>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion<br>>>> from an external, because there may arise an instance<br>>>> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or<br>>>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek<br>>>> alternative advise elswhere.<br>>>> rd<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Rudi Daniel<br>>>> /danielcharles consulting<br>>>> <<a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774</a>>/<br>>>> *<br>>>> *<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com" target="_blank">vinay.kesari@gmail.com</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com" target="_blank">vinay.kesari@gmail.com</a>');>><br>>>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> Dear all,<br>>>><br>>>> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was<br>>>> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a<br>>>> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and<br>>>> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability<br>>>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the<br>>>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my<br>>>> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to<br>>>> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.<br>>>><br>>>> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal<br>>>> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and<br>>>> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made<br>>>> and the specific requirements of the different WS2<br>>>> subgroups.<br>>>><br>>>> Regards,<br>>>> Vinay<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr" target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr" target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>');>><br>>>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> Dear Colleagues,<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Attached is a short set of slides to support our<br>>>> discussion on agenda item #4<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Talk to you in a few hours<br>>>><br>>>> Mathieu<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> *De :*<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>');><br>>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org</a>');>]<br>>>> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat<br>>>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46<br>>>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability<br>>>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT<br>>>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Good day all,<br>>>><br>>>> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability<br>>>> WS2 Meeting #2<br>>>> <<a href="https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw</a>>– Tuesday,<br>>>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter<br>>>> here<br>>>> <<a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2" target="_blank">http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability+Meeting&iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> *Proposed Agenda:*<br>>>><br>>>> 1. Welcome, SOI<br>>>><br>>>> 2.<br>>>> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission<br>>>><br>>>> 3.<br>>>> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps<br>>>><br>>>> 4.<br>>>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion<br>>>><br>>>> 5. AOB<br>>>><br>>>> 6. Closing<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> *Adobe Connect:<br>>>> *<a href="https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/" target="_blank">https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/</a><br>>>> <<a href="https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/" target="_blank">https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Thank you!<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> With kind regards,<br>>>><br>>>> Brenda Brewer<br>>>><br>>>> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant<br>>>><br>>>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names<br>>>> and Numbers<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a>');><br>>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> --<br>>>> Sivasubramanian M <<a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br>>><br>><br>> --<br>> Niels ten Oever<br>> Head of Digital<br>><br>> Article 19<br>> <a href="http://www.article19.org" target="_blank">www.article19.org</a><br>><br>> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4<br>> 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span></p></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><pre><span style="color:black;">_______________________________________________</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;"><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span></pre></blockquote><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><pre><span style="color:black;">-- </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">--------------</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">Matthew Shears</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">Global Internet Policy and Human Rights</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black;">+ 44 771 2472987</span></pre><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><div class="ecxMsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"><hr size="1" width="99%" noshade="" style="color:#909090;" align="center"></span></div><table class="ecxMsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:0in 11.25pt 0in 6.0pt;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus" target="_blank"><span style="border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none;"><image001.jpg></span></a></p></td><td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;"><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#3D4D5A;">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <br><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a> </span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p><div class="ecxMsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;"><hr size="1" width="100%" noshade="" style="color:#A0A0A0;" align="center"></span></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;">No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4613/12558 - Release Date: 07/04/16<br>Internal Virus Database is out of date.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org" target="_blank">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span></p></blockquote></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><br><br clear="all"></span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">-- </span></p><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;">Farzaneh </span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;"><br>_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list <a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div> </div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org">Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>