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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none">Hello all,<span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none">The notes, recordings and transcripts for CCWG Accountability WS2
<b>Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #8</b> – 4 October 2016 will be available here:
<a href="https://community.icann.org/x/ZwW4Aw">https://community.icann.org/x/ZwW4Aw</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none">A copy of the <span style="color:#0E1435">
n</span>otes may be found below. <span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none">Thank you<span style="color:#0E1435">.</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#0E1435"> </span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#0E0E0E">With kind regards,</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#11154C">Brenda Brewer </span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#0E0E0E">MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none;border:none;padding:0in"><span style="color:#0E0E0E">ICANN<b>
</b>-<b> </b>Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-family:Verdana"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">NOTES:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">18 participants in Adobe room at start of call.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">1. Administrivia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: Markus phone only. Changes to SOIs? (none). Changes to agenda?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Is there a summary of previous discussion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: report of the last meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: Again we seem to be starting from the assumption that the RUggie Principles are our base document and we are trimming from them. Why?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Brett, not. At least this is NOT my assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Markus ..: Should we take a step back? There are parallels with FIFA. Having Ruggie attend a meeting could be good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): good question Brett<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: But there is a divergence in the views of this group. I will fight against the assumption that Ruggie is our base document<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: I also remain concern that the draft FoI seems to assume that ICANN can voluntarily adopt HR obligations even though that seems in opposition to the Core Value text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: explanation of how the document was arrived at - it is a preliminary document that was meant as a scratch pad. I may of share this prematurely. It does not represent any kind of
consensus. I have been discussing our project with John Ruggie but he is a very busy man and cannot attend our call.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley: My recommendation is that the FOI it should be a separate document so everyone can see our progress.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: agree with that and will work on creating a clean document after this call.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavous Arasteh: Simple to criticize but hard to do. Why do we always come back to applicable law -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I won't also assume that the content of the FoI document is actually FoI. It's good structure-wise but content-wise it makes the assumptions that I will fight against.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Brett, whether or not ICANN can adopt voluntary obligations is beyond the scope of interpreting the Bylaw.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: @Greg, if so, then teh FoI is out of scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Niels, but this is not reflecting the discussions we had!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: Agree wtih<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Agree with Tatiana, any FoI should build on our discussions. This doesn't<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Brett, this is very consistent with my concern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Greg, the document is good structure wise though. So I don't want to look like I am trushing the work of others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: David, I agreed with you already in the comments in the doc. This will solve the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: thanks for the suggestion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): Thank you Niels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Good point David perhaps just start with a Outline frame for the FOI discussions to come<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: because the outline is good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Yes Tatiana the skeleton / structure is fine<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: yes, use outline but leave Ruggie for later<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I am one of those who think "applicable law" is an important part of the bylaw we are interpreting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: an entity respects human rights through complying with applicable law<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: David, yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): One critical question we should ask about all undertakings suggested in this document is this: Are they “required by applicable law?” If not, then we should recall the following
words that are a part of Bylaw Article 1.2(b)(viii): “This Core Value does not create, and shall not be interpreted to create, any obligation on ICANN … beyond obligations found in applicable law.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): indeed David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): That is why I believe any incorporation of any Ruggie Principle must be subject to an overarching statement that its impact will be subordinate to the “required by applicable
law” filter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: david: an entity respects human rights through complying with applicable law<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I appreciate Niels effort to get Prof Ruggie to come to a call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: David, I think that filter would eliminate much of the Ruggie Principles in the context of ICANN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Non-binding can still open the door for claims and court cases once ICANN commits to them<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Greg, +1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I tend to agree @Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio: Thanks to Niels for the document which will help our work. Ruggie principles are not binding for business entities but they are a benchmark internationally - We should go into this
discussion with an open mind. Would be interesting to hear what mr. Ruggie explains what is behind those principles. We have to mindful that this is a core value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: I have reached out to the UN working group but have not heard back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: I think NIels has already acknowledged the edits were premature. Thank you Niels for recognizing this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: We need to concentrate more on what the Bylaws say vs analyzing Ruggie principles. The document seems to assume a particular point of view which is not consensus of this group. All
points of view have to be represented in this document - possibly using more columns? Applicable law is a very important limitation. Agree with JC that we need an open mind which means we do not know if Ruggie principles are usable or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): we could have a second "descriptive" column and a third column with our different analysis of the facts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: If my draft is only causing people to participate then this is good. Re Applicable law - the only suggestion we have on this is from PM regarding looking at state and county laws
that are applicable. How could we address this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley: Applicable law is an actionable term as is and does not need to be analyzed or defined. ACTION ITEM will send his thoughts on Applicable Law to the list for the group. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): on "applicable law": why don't we start with an interpretation from ICANN legal? what it means to them?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: I think this is our job, not Jurisdiction. We can <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: not hand it off.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Erich Schweighofer: Applicable law changes, not the term. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I agree with David...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): on "applicable law": why don't we start with an interpretation from ICANN legal? what it means to them?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I will take a stab at it, Jorge, but if ICANN legal would do that then in my view that would be preferable<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: will now proceed with agenda.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">2. Analysis of Ruggie Principles for ICANN - discussion on UN Guiding Principles 19, 17, 18<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: Due diligence and principle 19 - thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio: I would leave that at this point - this is operational parts of the principles and is about implementation and not interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: We had not consensus on what due diligence actually means. Effective Integration seems to go into enforcement - at best this is controversial.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavous Arasteh: There is no due diligence here - this looks good - the chapeau part seems to apply quite well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: the section containing this principles is labelled Due Diligence in the Ruggie principles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Principle 19 is all about implementation and beyond the scope of this group. Our job is to interpret the Bylaws.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I just want to say that this principle has to be read together with others. It's not a standing alone principle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): Mitigate would be acceptable as long as required by applicable law<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: And if Ruggie require a broad impact assessment ... this is a broad thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: David, yes, as well as protect and enforce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: @ David - even then it could be outside the scope of the bylaw<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: And yes, it is the issue of implementation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels Ten Oever: GS is mitigation not part of what we are doing?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: corect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh 2: Any time and evry time we discuss an issue somebody says the issue is of implementation nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh 2: How we could draw a line between policy principles and implementation principles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: anytime we are writing what people should be doing wrt HR then we have probably strayed over the line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio: I agree with what GS has said.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: I note that ICANN has not yet made policy has to HR. This is a high level By-Law. Policy will be made in accordance with the existing ICANN processes - including Policy Development.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): I am in line with your thinking Greg / Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: If we are talking about what ICANN is free to do, and not what it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: is committed to do we are no longer interpreting a bylaw.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: could we move on to the other princples in the agenda so that we move on from Ruggie for the next call?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavous Arasteh: do we need to discuss Ruggie or not? we need to resolve this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio: On principle 17 seems to be more on implementation as it explains what 15B means.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley: I would align with GS on principle 17. Ruggie are drafted to apply to all businesses while we are approaching this from the POV of ICANN which is a very specific type of business.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: We are making progress and there is light at the end of the tunnel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavous Arasteh: when I look at Ruggie are all based on Assessing, evaluating and mitigating, prevention etc....maybe we only need one or two things from this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: ICANN will be undertaking policy-making activities with reference to the FOI-HR. Implementation will occur after policy is adopted - in accordance with existing ICANN processes.
Agree that human rights impact assessment is implementation. Not sure as to whether conducting due diligence is policy or implementation. It is quite certain that if it affects registry contract obligations, it is policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: I think we are being sloppy in using the term "policy" as if it is interchangeable with interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Yes I thought that was what we are doing Niels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: I a way Niels this has been a useful exercise for me because at the outset it was unclear to me whether Ruggie was in scope and suitable - but now having gone through this I am convinced
that they are largely not, and certainly not as a starting point for our limited work on the FoI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: +1 Matthew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: Principle 18<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): yup <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: I think our opinions our converging indeed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Yes, Matt. Having gone through them I am not convinced to change my position that Ruggie shall be out unless we decide something is in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: As previously expressed, I favor some version of Principle 18 being added to the FOI- HR. I believe this is consistent with current ICANN processes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: Yes, consensus seems to be that Ruggie is not a sound basis for the FoI. We should reconsider our approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: anything that starts with IN ORDER TO is implementation and outside our scope. 3 phases, interpreting the Byalws, implementing the bylaw through policy dev. and then development. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: I think that is not what people said Brett, parts of Ruggie are useful, not wholly applicable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland) 2: +1 Niels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Brett Schaefer: Really, I thought people supported Matthew who said: I a way Niels this has been a useful exercise for me because at the outset it was unclear to me whether Ruggie was in scope and
suitable - but now having gone through this I am convinced that they are largely not, and certainly not as a starting point for our limited work on the FoI.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: who will take a stab at the next version of the document? GS, TT, MS, JC. Adjourned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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