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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Please see the notes, recordings, and transcript for the CCWG Accountability WS2 Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #22 here;
<a href="https://community.icann.org/x/K6vRAw">https://community.icann.org/x/K6vRAw</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">A copy of the notes may be found below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">With kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1D1D1D">B</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">renda
</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1D1D1D">B</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">rewer,</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D"> Projects & Operations Assistant <o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">Multistakeholder Strategy & Strategic Initiatives (MSSI)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D"><img border="0" width="61" height="61" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D291E4.42D6F380" alt="id:image001.png@01D28DF5.EF27C2B0"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:22.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Notes (including relevant portions of the chat):<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">14 Participants at start of call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"> 1. Administrivia - Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Apologies: Jorge Cancio, Herb Waye, Mathew Shears<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - Audio only? (AAS). Any update to SOIs (none). May of been premature to call this a first reading but if we agree today it would allow us to have a meeting next week to have a second
reading to submit to the plenary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): are we meeting next week? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: Not everyone is going to make it to the face to face due to the way the meeting schedule turned out<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: There is no Plenary before Copenhagen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese: Next week Tuesday meeting would be hard for those travelling from far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I put red tick as while I think it would be good, I am very much against excluding those who can't make this call next week<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: That will also be too late to submit a document for the Plenary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Greg, yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavous Arasteh: There is no meeting scheduled for next week and my points have not been addressed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - temperature check to have a meeting next week (no support). Ok will advise Co-Chairs that we will not have a document for the face to face.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: this is of course sad but we can't compromise on the quality and inclusion :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - should we look at the JC document or my version?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - I have also sent a revised version why is not being considered?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - KA your comments have already been integrated in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese - I have not seen it so if we use it can you be specific.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">2. First reading (of two) of the Considerations document prepared by the drafting team</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatian Tropina - (reading document).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady - could we deal with one para at a time. On para 1 seems inconsistent. No definition of DECLERATION. Now we have OTHER INSTRUMENTS which are also undefined. Then we get into COVENANTS
which is also undefined. We need to clean this up and call it one thing consistently throughout the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Maybe we should use "conventions and other instruments" as used in the "consideration".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatian Tropina - PM thanks this is very useful. If we use the language from Annex 12 would this meet the requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady - The definition can be broad we use anything we want and then use it consistently it will be fine.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: But for the substance we use the "HR conventions or other instruments" as in the Annex 12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: But for interpretation we might also use UDHR, no?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - Agree with PM but still have issues with the first para given agreements are one thing but declarations are something else - you cannot mix these things as states have not agreed
to all these things - maybe just drop the first sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: that this means declarations, conventions, Bills, etc widely agreed internationally<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: Since none of it is binding on ICANN, it really does not matter who signed or implemented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: Human Rights conventions, agreements, declarations, conventions, covenants, and instruments (collectively "Human Rights Documents")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: +1 Avri<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Paul, inserting this in the google doc - thanks much much!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - good suggestions for the drafting team.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: "Documents" seems a bit too generic -- I would prefer that we use "conventions and other instruments" each time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Markus Kummer: "internationally agreed human rights instruments" ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Greg, that's what I suggested while speaking, but we can fine tune for the next call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: i like conventions and other instruments as well<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: (collectively "Human Rights Cannon")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: we have to follow the language of annex 12 but still implement Paul's corrections<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: "States are parties to these document"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Markus Kummer: instrument is the usual overarching term used in international law<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - Need to reflect that whatever we define is aimed at States.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina - lets put all the comments in the Googledoc and the lawyer it up to make consistent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - You cannot use INSTRUMENTS sometimes this is more than conventions or not. Still suggest we drop the first part.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Avri Doria - Irrelevant how many states have agreed to these things does not matter since they are not applicable to ICANN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: +1 Avri.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: +1 Avri<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: + 1 Avri - very much to the point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Janet Shih Hajek: Instead of Human Rights conventions are agreements between states,” why not just start with “ICANN, as a non-state private party, is not a party to any Human Rights convention
or other human rights instrument. However, ICANN could refer to any of the widely adopted Human Rights conventions and other instruments . . . “<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: there is nothing all countries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: Disagree with AD, agreed with states causes problem need to fix.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina - (reading next section). Not happy with JC proposed language but can live with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): Agree w/Tatiana on this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - do not agree with JC language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - KA proposal not much different and we can replace CONSENSUS with AGREEMENT.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: yes this should be fine. It makes no big difference for me, but if it's very critical for someone let's replace<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady - do not understand how the second and third paras fit together. I think we were considering if they were binding and para should say it is not. Para 3 just says what we say in para
1 but only about 1 thing. Para 2 needs to be stronger and there does not seem to be a reason for para.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina - the problem is because of the definintion of UN guidance on HR for Business. As to para 2 the recommendation has been watered down to have a compromise because some people still
think they should be binding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I think paragraph 2 is fine and accurate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): And agree w/Tatiana that the language was crafted with compromise in mind<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: @Tatiana - thank you. That discussion is helpful and explains why we need paragraph 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - tend to agree with PM. If you want to maintain para 3 it should be before para 2. But do not favour keeping para 3. If kept should be reworded to show there is not consensus on
the matter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Paras 2 and 3 deal with interpretation and implementation of the Guiding Principles, respectively.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: Once we ake it clear that Guiding Principles are not part of the Human Rights Documents contemplated in paragraph 1, I think paragraph 3 makes sense now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: para 3 is important and it is the saving grace of the section.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: @Avri - :)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Anne Aikman-Scalese - We need to be clear for the Board on the Ruggie principles other it will be a recipe for trouble.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Taiana Tropina - 3rd para was a compromise from the last version. Would be happy not to have it but it would probably cause an issue so we will keep it and fix it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): The interpretation of the bylaw cannot undo the bylaw – it will be binding if it is international recognized under applicable law – that may differ from place to place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - Have looked up HR Instruments do not include Ruggie and would suggest that para 2 and 3 are out of scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: and time to time<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): agreed, @Avri<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: UNGPs are a softlaw instrument<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: oooooooohhhh that's too radical even for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - if we drop para 3 then we can drop 2 also. Guiding cannot be binding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Wow, I find myself in disagreement with Greg, finally! :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Guiding_Principles_on_Business_and_Human_Rights"><span style="color:#3B73AF;text-decoration:none">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Guiding_Principles_on_Business_and_Human_Rights</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: And Kavouss and Greg aligned<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: deletion of Ruggie comes close to some of our die in the ditch regions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: a UN agreed doc is in scope!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: To say nothing about it after all this work on it, doesn't seem productive. Greg, can you find another place in this document to address the Guiding Principles?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): We should address Ruggie as not reaching consensus - we spent considerabl;e time on it<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina - As AD has stated Ruggie principles will be die in the ditch for some. It may be best to actually deal with this in the document because it would create ambiguity going forward<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: Then Paul asked a question, we explained, and now everything is up in the air<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: am a bit surprised<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: i think the 3 para is the right solution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: there was a sophistic twist on the matter of scope. but denying scope to an UN aggreed document in scope abuse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I agree w/Niels on this - the language was carefully put together<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - My suggestion to remove the paras has nothing to do with Ruggie but rather simply if it is in scope or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I think it should be treated with caution instead of leaving the things blank. remember the jurisdiction debate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever: Ruggie is an instrument - there is no doubt about that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: David, yes. And the Ruggie principles is like elephants in the room<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: we don't have to redefine terms instruments but we have to note that they are not instruments. Yes, seems like a good suggestion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: here we go again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Agree with David's last comment<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: We can't ignore Ruggie, this will be reopened at one point and we have to deliver.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: "could be" is not "must be"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - We do not use Ruggie to interpret the Bylaw - we can use it to interpret Human Rights. What is the definition of a HR Core Value?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: Let's add the caveat and save the hard work we have done on dealing with Ruggie.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Oh I would be happy with deleting the para 3 but many will die in the ditch for this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: We are calling it the "Human Rights Core Value."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Core Value is singular and refers only to that Core Value that refers to human rights.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Paul, this seems like the best solution. And yes, the text has to be clarified. As I said already in all the fights about the substance we are sometimes paying more attention to
compromise than the quality and clarity of the explanation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Core Values is plural and would refer to all the Core Values.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: Greg, it is wrong to call it Core Value<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Paul has been our reality check - thanks so much Paul.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: That is exactly what it is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: Why you wish to generalize it to cover all core values<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Avri, we have to mention them. I agree - being an opponent of Ruggie.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Paul McGrady: We need to tell the plenary about the work we did on this. We can't just leave it blank...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Avri Doria - going at this again. Trying to use the definition to get Ruggie out is not valid. As such disagree with this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Avri, yes. The para is carefully crafted consensus and we have to leave it there (may be fine tune)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): Bylaw 27.2(a) says: The Core Value set forth in Section 1.2(b)(viii) shall have no force or effect unless and until a framework of interpretation for human rights ("FOI-HR")
...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: I do dislike saying this because I was against the para 3, but I think we have to take this into consideration<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Niels ten Oever - should go back to the drafting group. Adjourned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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