[atrt2] PDP Effectiveness Study

Sat Jun 22 13:09:03 UTC 2013

Hi,

Sorry I misread the worlds "with all due respect"  I always see that being used differently, more as a weapon.  I guess it is all part of the relativism of expression.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by 'technical barriers'.  The reference to IETF makes me think it meant "knowing what what one was talking about in terms of the technology."  It may be my  great misunderstanding, but I do assume that in making policy for technology one should understand the technology.  But I may not understand.

I also do not understand what you mean about GAC being in a regulatory role.  While I beleive that ICANN, as a whole, provides  regulatory functions, I do not see GAC itself as being in a regulatory role.

Finally, from what I see, every stakeholder feels that they do not have adequate access to the process.  But I think this is partly the result of all sharing access.  I can tell for sure that Civil society feels that it is pushed in the corner and that its human rights concerns are ignored at every turn.   Many contracted parties seem to feel that others, especially staff, have captured the process and their concerns do not get proper regard.  The Intellectual property constituencies think their real and desperate concerns are being ignored.  And so on for each stakeholder group that could be named.  Each of us can point to another stakeholder group and see how much more influence they have over the process.  From my Civil Society perspective, it looks like the GAC already rules the organization: they issue a statement, whisper threats about the ITU/WCIT eating ICANN's lunch, and the Board strives to do what they want - the Board has never done that for civil society, we feel ignored, deprecated and endured only for the semblance of multistakeholder appearances.   Each of us can point to parts in the process where we think we are not being allowed to participate fully and adequately.  I think this group has to take into account that all of the stakeholders feel thwarted by the nature of the multistakeholder process, and the ATRT2 should not elevate any group's concerns beyond the others.  We need to improve multistakeholder accountability, not the accountability to any single stakeholder group.

I think the issue, given the multistakeholder nature of our group and of ICANN, is to figure out how we can become more accountable, as a multistakeholder organization, to all of its stakeholders, in a system where by its very nature, no one will get what all that they want.

thanks

avri

On 22 Jun 2013, at 06:37, Carlos Raul Gutierrez wrote:

> Avri,
> 
> I was just trying to be polite. i will be as clear as I can write in English, and will just quote from the justification of my one pager, which was not meant to be personal.  It goes as follows
> :
> In many Internet governance and standards organizations, technical barriers are beneficial: in the IETF they contribute to meritocratic evaluation of proposals; in technology development processes they ensure the quality of contributions; in technical policy making they are a reality check and ensure operational efficacy.  In each of these, technical barriers contribute to quality control.  But when engaging with public policy makers, technical barriers preclude effective engagement and dialogue, and may foster distrust.  
> 
> Currently, the mechanisms for evaluating this phenomenon as an outcome are poorly understood.  An illustration is the current relationship between the GAC, the Board, and some of its joint working groups (operating principles, by-laws, PDP).  The Board has placed the GAC in a box and their engagement through joint WGs is confounded by technical barriers that are not aligned with the types of outcomes policy makers base their decisions based on.  The result is a body that has a fundamental regulatory role, but that both denies that role in favor of a poorly articulated .... model of multi-stakeholderism and that has unintentionally alienated those policy agents in government that could best help them develop this role.   
> 
> 
> based on that: yes, I would agree that based on that statemnt you can tag me into our second group if you like. No problem with your own prejudices. From that quote, I support a wider external perspective about ICANN, simply because I'm working for one Government that really tries hard to express its opinion (see ITRs),
> 
> You may want to elaborate on how we can bridge the two groups as per your clasification.
> 
> Cheers
> Carlos Raul
> 
> 2013/6/21 Avri Doria <avri at ella.com>
> Hi,
> 
> "with all due respect"? I must be in trouble now!
> 
> ....
> 
> I beleive all the mechanisms needed for very involved Nation State and GAC participation exist are contained in the By-Laws and PDP process as well as WG guidelines, it is just that these mechanisms are rarely if ever used.
> 
> Others seem to  beleive that Nation States and  GAC are  given no real voice in fulfilling their stakeholder mandate in a manner appropriate to their definition of their roles and responsibilities.
> 
> If we assume that both are right, then what we may have is a mismatch of mechanisms and capabilities.  Perhaps that is what will be discovered.
> 
> What I think is critical in this, like other questions we ask,  is asking the question in a non prejudicial manner.
> 
> avri
> 
> On 21 Jun 2013, at 08:30, Carlos Raul wrote:
> 
> > With all due respect Avri, this is exactly what I consider the problem of ATRT1 and I hope we can improve it this time: Its ICANN-centric perspective.
> >
> > We have a wider participation of public servants, as the still unsent letter shows, and we tend to see ICANNs legitimacy based on its ability to convince Governments, every single day, that they are doing their best in taking into account its considerations, independently if through (a definition) of GAC in the By-laws, or directly from Governments themselves or through a meta-definition of public interest.
> >
> > Luckily ICANN has today a CEO that, is taking its outreach to Governments very seriously and consulting them more widely than GAC itself sometimes does (due to lack of time of course). GAC has a full paragraph dedicated in 9.1
> >
> > (b) assessing the role and effectiveness of the GAC and its interaction with the Board and making recommendations for improvement to ensure effective consideration by ICANN ofGAC input on the public policy aspects of the technical coordination of the DNS;
> >
> > For that reason I support Jorgens very diplomatic language. I would be more blunt: my reading of 9.1 is that if GAC-BOARD relations are not effective, Governments should consider other channels to put their thoughts forward.
> >
> > I hope you all have a nice weekend!
> >
> >
> >
> > Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
> > Skype   carlos.raulg
> > _________
> > Apartado 1571-1000
> > COSTA RICA
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Avri Doria <avri at ella.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would be more comfortable with a more ICANN centric question, like:
> >
> > - Whether the views of the GAC have been handled appropriately given their status as defined in the ICANN bylaws.
> >
> >
> > avri
> >
> >
> > On 20 Jun 2013, at 12:41, Jørgen C Abild Andersen wrote:
> >
> > > Dear colleagues
> > >
> > > Proposal for a new bullit between 86 and 87 (a 86A):
> > >
> > > - whether in particular the views and advice provided by GAC has been duly taken into account given the specific tasks of national governments with respect to public policy.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Jørgen
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> -- 
> Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
> skype carlos.raulg
> _________
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