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Hi Bill<br>
thanks for the inputs and ideas, some brief comments below<br>
Joy<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/12/2014 9:43 p.m., William Drake
wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:FA6B530C-4907-4B32-B692-9B184EBF3E4D@gmail.com"
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<div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b
class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: ICANN and human
rights followup to meeting in LA</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family:
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sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b
class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">William Drake <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch" class="">william.drake@uzh.ch</a>><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b
class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">December 2, 2014 at 9:23:23 AM GMT+1<br
class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b
class="">Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Niels ten Oever <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:niels@article19.org"
class="">niels@article19.org</a>>, Avri Doria <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:avri@acm.org"
class="">avri@acm.org</a>>, Stephanie Perrin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" class="">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>>,
Marilia Maciel <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com" class="">mariliamaciel@gmail.com</a>>,
Rafik Dammak <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" class="">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a>>,
Robin Gross <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" class="">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>,
Thomas Schneider <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Thomas.Schneider@bakom.admin.ch" class="">Thomas.Schneider@bakom.admin.ch</a>>,
Olivier Crepin-Leblond <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" class="">ocl@gih.com</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk" class="">Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk" class="">Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk</a>>,
Olga Cavalli <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:olgacavalli@gmail.com" class="">olgacavalli@gmail.com</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch" class="">Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch" class="">Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch</a>>,
Roy Balleste <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rballeste@stu.edu" class="">rballeste@stu.edu</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RPEREZGA@minetur.es" class="">RPEREZGA@minetur.es</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RPEREZGA@minetur.es" class="">RPEREZGA@minetur.es</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wolf@eurodig.org"
class="">wolf@eurodig.org</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wolf@eurodig.org"
class="">wolf@eurodig.org</a>>, Lee Hibbard <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int"
class="">Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int</a>>, "<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mallory@apc.org"
class="">mallory@apc.org</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mallory@apc.org"
class="">mallory@apc.org</a>>, William Drake <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch" class="">william.drake@uzh.ch</a>><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b
class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family:
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Joy Liddicoat <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:joy@apc.org"
class="">joy@apc.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
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charset=ISO-8859-1" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 2, 2014, at 1:29 AM, joy <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:joy@apc.org"
class="">joy@apc.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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class="">Am a bit surprised by this Bill.
There is not a doubt that ICANN<br class="">
impacts freedom of expression and privacy,
right?!<br class="">
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size:
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Neils:
I am afraid Bill is correct and in my view we
have a severe clash of understanding in ICANN
- as human rights advocates, you and I both
know that 'human rights' includes FX and
privacy. But in ICANN, dominated as it is by
US folks, they have no clue what 'human
rights' are: honestly. They might have a vague
idea what 'civil rights' are, but in my
experience most are quite ignorant about
'human rights' and think these are to do with
poverty and clean water or social security -
so there is sometimes a kind of intellectual
allergic reaction or a more mild sense of
being non-plussed about how human rights are
relevant. This seems to also attach to the
politics of the issue as well.</span><br
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Err…if I may offer two small amendments. I’d say "<span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">dominated as it is by business and
technical folks.” I at least have no evidence that
business </span><span style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">and technical</span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""> </span><span style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">folks with passport x
are systematically less aware than </span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">business </span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">and technical</span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""> </span><span style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">folks with passport y.
And I think it’s possible people have can have a
baseline understanding and appreciation of human
rights but simply have never heard or engaged
the case that that decisions about name collisions,
cc redelegations, IRTP, or the zillion other issues
dealt with in ICANN can clearly and negatively
impact rights (other than trademark). The burden
there is on us as much as it is on them. Like
many siloed groups and subgroupings we talk among
ourselves and reinforce each others' views and then
conclude that what we think should be obvious to
others who work in completely different spaces.
Expecting that everyone has read the 40 page COE
paper (on which some people within e.g. civil
society disagree in parts), had a </span>eureka
moment, and is ready to get started on a fix is
unrealistic.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
JL - I was not suggesting this expectation in relation to the COE
paper: merely reflecting on my own experiences advocating for human
rights in ICANN in the gTLD space and GNSO over the last 3 years. We
can agree to disagree on it, but my experience and observation is
that there are definite cultural clashes and what human rights are -
these played out even at the ICANN LA meeting. It is great to have
space to address these more directly in this new discussion.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FA6B530C-4907-4B32-B692-9B184EBF3E4D@gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
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<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Aside from lining up the room (really
urgent), I’d suggest the first order of business ought
to be to prepare a FAQ. Two pages of concise problem
statements with illustrative examples of policies and
practices that raise HR concerns and ends with a few
options for tackling the problem, ranging from lowest
impact in terms of institutionalization to more
demanding and systematic. Something like this we
could circulate in a number of ways (e.g. SOACSGC
chairs could be asked to share with their respective
tribes) to raise awareness and generate interest in a
meeting to discuss. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It’d be important for the FAQ to make
clear what we are and are not focusing on. In this
regard, at the risk of sounding like an Anglo-Saxon, I
would reiterate the view I and some others stated in
LA: we start with civil and political rights,
particularly FoE and privacy, and leave aside economic
and social rights and 3rd generation rights (peace,
development) etc at least initially or we end up with
the discussion turning into an another free range blob
and debating .health again without getting anywhere.
We don’t have to say the others are out of bounds or
can’t be returned to later if consensus takes us
there, but start with the low hanging fruit on which
people can more readily see the case.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
JL: While I agree with the strategic point, I think it is vital that
NCUC, having such diverse membership from developing countries, does
not, and is not seen to, sideline economic, cultural, and social
rights. There are many other gTLDs that raise these other than
.health, which is a relatively recent issue. But I understand that
is a question of strategy and tactics rather than of preferencing
some rights over others.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FA6B530C-4907-4B32-B692-9B184EBF3E4D@gmail.com"
type="cite">
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class=""><br class="">
>>> A lot of the community is still
nowhere near being in the tent.<br class="">
>>> I had two board members pull me
aside in LA to say WTF is this<br class="">
>>> human rights thing who are these
people this could be a<br class="">
>>> disaster, and I heard various
other comments from people in<br class="">
>>> governments and the community
that were at a minimum, skeptical<br class="">
>>> and reserved.<br class="">
<br class="">
But isn't that exactly a reason to have that
discussion in a workshop<br class="">
instead of in backchannels?<br class="">
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">JL:
yes, but it needs to come back to some simple
concepts to help build understanding - the
Europeans, Canadians, South African, Kenyan,
Pakistan among others, - will understand - but
my guess is that many from the US will not.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was not arguing against having a
workshop, I advocated it in LA.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
Great - and I see some positive suggestions from Niels as well -
will look forward to helping with next steps.<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Joy <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FA6B530C-4907-4B32-B692-9B184EBF3E4D@gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">Best</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bill</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
***********************************************<br
class="">
William J. Drake<br class="">
International Fellow & Lecturer<br class="">
Media Change & Innovation Division, IPMZ<br
class="">
University of Zurich, Switzerland<br class="">
Chair, Noncommercial Users Constituency, <br class="">
ICANN, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ncuc.org/" class="">www.ncuc.org</a><br
class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch" class="">william.drake@uzh.ch</a> (direct), <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com" class="">wjdrake@gmail.com</a>
(lists),<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.williamdrake.org/" class="">www.williamdrake.org</a><br
class="">
***********************************************
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
***********************************************<br class="">
William J. Drake<br class="">
International Fellow & Lecturer<br class="">
Media Change & Innovation Division, IPMZ<br class="">
University of Zurich, Switzerland<br class="">
Chair, Noncommercial Users Constituency, <br class="">
ICANN, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ncuc.org"
class="">www.ncuc.org</a><br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch"
class="">william.drake@uzh.ch</a> (direct), <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com"
class="">wjdrake@gmail.com</a> (lists),<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.williamdrake.org"
class="">www.williamdrake.org</a><br class="">
***********************************************
</div>
<br class="">
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