<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Forwarding Jordan's email to the Legal Sub Team list.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Jordan Carter</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>></span><br>Date: Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:26 PM<br>Subject: Fwd: [Acct-Legal] Draft answers to Apr 17 memo<br>To: Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>, Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>><br>Cc: ACCT-Staff <<a href="mailto:acct-staff@icann.org">acct-staff@icann.org</a>>, Mathieu Weill <<a href="mailto:Mathieu.Weill@afnic.fr">Mathieu.Weill@afnic.fr</a>>, Thomas Rickert <<a href="mailto:rickert@anwaelte.de">rickert@anwaelte.de</a>>, Becky Burr <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>>, stevedelbianco <<a href="mailto:sdelbianco@netchoice.org">sdelbianco@netchoice.org</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr">Please see my correspondence below. I got a bounce from the list.<div><br></div><div>Jordan</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Jordan Carter</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>></span><br>Date: 21 April 2015 at 12:10<br>Subject: Re: [Acct-Legal] Draft answers to Apr 17 memo<br>To: "<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr">Hi all<div><br></div><div>I don't know if this will get through.</div><div><br></div><div>I have carefully calibrated the powers in WP1 to be something in between a decision point and a reconsideration. I think they're best thought of as reconsideration-with-block.</div><div><br></div><div>The intention of taking this approach on my part has been to leave the Board as the decision-maker, but the power with the Community to reject its proposed approaches and to send matters back to the Board for reconsideration. </div><div><br></div><div>Unlike a normal reconsideration process though, the lack of limits on the number of times this can happen and the (I hope) clear statement that the bylaws change, or budget or strategic plan, cannot progress or be implemented while it is being reconsidered, clearly allocates the responsibility for making workable decisions with the Board, but empowers the community in a suitable way.</div><div><br></div><div>If we try to give the community mechanism the formal decision rights, I think we are asking for trouble.</div><div><br></div><div>I hope this helps.</div><div><br></div><div>cheers</div><div>Jordan</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 21 April 2015 at 11:15, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Robin,</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I had real problems with the second sentence of 1. Voluntary compliance is not a form of enforceability, and the question asks about voluntary compliance as opposed to enforceability. In any case, if you're not suggesting a further change, no need to discuss further.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">How would you change the answer to question #4? I'm not sure I understand your comment. I don't think we are seeking to change which budgets and plans go before the Board; we're just seeking to change the community's role in dealing with a budget or plan the community doesn't like. As for the contractual option for approving, counsel did not sound very hopeful ("might be enforceable," "might be very complex"). In any case, I don't think that changes the answer to question 4, which requires an answer to a postulate.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Also, is there are a change you would amke to #5? Before hypothesizing that unincorporated associations would be disregarded in other jurisdictions, I think we would need a credibility check with our counsel. I am no cross-border litigator, but I would think that principles of comity (legal reciprocity among nations), among other things, would prevent or at least deter such a result. Of course, even if unincorporated associations are disregarded, that is probably no worse than the current situation where SOACs have no legal status whatsoever (unless one believes that ICANN is protecting all of us from litigation). Does the Legal Sub Team want to assign these questions to counsel? </div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:11 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I liked the second sentence answer to 1a as originally drafted. My only quibble is with the answer supplied to question 4. It seems we have options about what budgets or plans can get *before* the board for the ultimate vote and we have options about contractual enforcement under the designator model that need further exploration.<div><br></div><div>As for the answer to 5, I think anytime a new entity is created that people are participating in and that make decisions for which money is on the table, there is always going to be the concern for lawsuits. If another country does not recognize unincorporated associations, for example, the individuals participating in those associations might instead be the target for whatever lawsuit gets filed about their decision/action (possibly in another jurisdiction). While California law is a main concern, we need to recognize that other parts of the world may not share the protections in their legal code and so would try to reach right through the California association.<br><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Robin</div><div><br><div><div><div><div>On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:33 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam wrote:</div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Leon,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I offer the following comments:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I suggest that the answers have a general lead-in sentence along these lines: We are submitting answers as requested but expect that further discussions in CCWG calls as well as work party and legal sub-team calls may further develop community concerns along these lines.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">With respect to the answer to 1.a) – I would stop after you’re the first sentence. I am concerned in the second sentence with the phrase “Whether this enforceability is voluntary compliance …” and think it best just to stop after first sentence. Voluntary compliance would not be an acceptable norm, in my opinion.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">With respect to the answer to 3.a) – I agree with the items listed in a) through d) – but there may be more, e.g. inaction by the board in certain circumstances, IRP decision as noted in the example in the question.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">With respect to the answer to 5) – I would suggest something along these lines: Most participants in the ICANN community are from countries other than the United States, and they (as well as many participants in the United States) are concerned with the reputation of the Unites States for unduly high levels of litigation. Our interest is in assuring participants that they will have the best protection from exposure to litigation in this regard, and nothing less than the community members have had to date. <u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">David McAuley</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-left-style:none;border-width:initial;border-color:initial;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0in;padding-bottom:0in;padding-left:0in"><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span> </span><a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org</a><span> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam<br><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Monday, April 20, 2015 12:33 PM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>[Acct-Legal] Draft answers to Apr 17 memo<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I am attaching a very brief draft reply to the questions raised to us by the lawyers in their April 17 memo regarding the comparison chart on corporate models.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I kindly ask you to review the draft and add any information you might consider relevant so we can have a final version by the end of today to submit to the lawyers.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Please pay special attention to question 5 which has no answer in the draft.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Thanks in advance,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-image:initial;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt">León Felipe Sánchez Ambía<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-image:initial;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt">Fulton & Fulton SC<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;background-image:initial;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.fulton.mx" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,106,227)">http://www.fulton.mx</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div 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Copying, reviewing, use, disclosure or distribution of such information without the proper written permission is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify this sender immediately and do not deliver, distribute or copy this e-mail or its attachments, and refrain from disclosing its contents or taking any action in reliance on the information it contains.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">León<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div></div></div></div><span>_______________________________________________<br>Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5</a><br></span></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888">-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Jordan Carter<br><br>Chief Executive <br><b>InternetNZ</b><br><br><a href="tel:04%20495%202118" value="+6444952118" target="_blank">04 495 2118</a> (office) | <a href="tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64 21 442 649</a> (mob)<br><a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>Skype: jordancarter<br><br><i>A better world through a better Internet </i><br><br></div></div></div></div>
</font></span></font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Jordan Carter<br><br>Chief Executive <br><b>InternetNZ</b><br><br>04 495 2118 (office) | <a href="tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64 21 442 649</a> (mob)<br><a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>Skype: jordancarter<br><br><i>A better world through a better Internet </i><br><br></div></div></div></div>
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