<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I can participate this afternoon and evening (NY time). The weekend is basically shot. Tomorrow is difficult after 11 am New York time as I have a birthday brunch with my son followed by a birthday party for my nephew, and travel to/from both. Sunday morning I have an 8:30 am flight to San Diego for the International Trademark Association Annual Meeting.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:57 AM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Thanks David. </div><div><br></div><div>Jordan, Mathieu, Thomas, Cheryl, Steve, Becky?<span class=""><br><br>Saludos,<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>León</div><div><br></div><div>Enviado desde el móvil.</div><div>Errores tipográficos son culpa del tecladito y mis dedos gordos. </div></span></div><div><div class="h5"><div><br>El may 1, 2015, a las 7:36 AM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>> escribió:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I could participate at 6pm US eastern time today and most of weekend.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">David McAuley<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 01, 2015 8:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Rickert; stevedelbianco; Cheryl Langdon-Orr<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Acct-Legal] Fwd: The need for more info on Uninc Assos<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Holly. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I believe today would be difficult but would like to hear from others as to which time would also work for them. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks <br>
<br>
Saludos,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">León<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Enviado desde el móvil.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Errores tipográficos son culpa del tecladito y mis dedos gordos. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
El may 1, 2015, a las 6:53 AM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>> escribió:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>Hi Leon, let me check with Rosemary. Are you looking to do this later today? We could potentially do this in the late afternoon. Around 6 eastern. Holly
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent with Good (<a href="http://www.good.com" target="_blank">www.good.com</a>)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></b><b><u></u><u></u></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org</a> on behalf of List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 01, 2015 06:29:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org" target="_blank">ccwg-accountability5@icann.org</a>; Thomas Rickert; Jordan Carter; Mathieu Weill; Greg Shatan; stevedelbianco; Cheryl Langdon-Orr; Becky Burr<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Acct-Legal] Fwd: The need for more info on Uninc Assos</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Counsel,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">When would you be able to hold a call to help clarify the doubts around UAs interaction and general panorama on them?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A one hour conference should be enough I think. <br>
<br>
Best regards , <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">León<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Enviado desde el móvil.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Errores tipográficos son culpa del tecladito y mis dedos gordos. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Inicio del mensaje reenviado:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>De:</b> Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>><br>
<b>Fecha:</b> 1 de mayo de 2015, 5:36:41 AM CDT<br>
<b>Para:</b> Mathieu Weill <<a href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr" target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Thomas Rickert <<a href="mailto:rickert@anwaelte.de" target="_blank">rickert@anwaelte.de</a>>, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <<a href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx" target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>>,
Becky Burr <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz" target="_blank">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>>, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <<a href="mailto:langdonorr@gmail.com" target="_blank">langdonorr@gmail.com</a>>, stevedelbianco <<a href="mailto:sdelbianco@netchoice.org" target="_blank">sdelbianco@netchoice.org</a>>, ACCT-Staff
<<a href="mailto:acct-staff@icann.org" target="_blank">acct-staff@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> <b>Re: The need for more info on Uninc Assos</b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It isn't about questions, Mathieu. It is about painting the picture of the reality of how this would actually work.
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm starting to think the best way to resolve that would be a half hour teleconference between us and the legal people. To flesh out how the model would work and write it down.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">J.<br>
<br>
On Friday, 1 May 2015, Mathieu Weill <<a href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr" target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I support as well. I'll leave interaction with lawyers to leon but we would certainly help by starting to point out the questions the community would need answers to ? <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Jordan how would you frame them ? <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mathieu Weill<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">---------------<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Depuis mon mobile, désolé pour le style<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Le 1 mai 2015 à 06:12, Jordan Carter <<a>jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> a écrit :<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That's just one example... <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Leon, how quickly could we do this?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">J <br>
<br>
On Friday, 1 May 2015, Greg Shatan <<a>gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I agree 100%. The overarching criticism of the first CWG report was that it was "too complex" and "lacked detail." Initially I couldn't understand this criticism, because these appeared
mutually exclusive. I've come to understand that lack of detail leads to lack of clarity and lack of clarity makes it difficult to grasp the concepts, and concepts that can't quite be grasped appear complex. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Add to this the tendency of some (many?) in the community to insert dynamite into any crack in a proposal they don't favor and then point to the impending explosion....<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">For a more direct example, look at the recent exchanges involving Chris Disspain, Jordan and myself. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Jordan Carter <<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi team (Co-chairs, Rapporteurs, ACCT staff and Greg) <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I feel like I am beating my head against a wall on this but: WE NEED to present more information URGENTLY about the unincorporated association concept.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>My request would be that we ask the lawyers to add a page of "flavour" and summary about the UAs to the 23 April memo and maybe add a couple of more basic questions people might ask, and turn it into a UA Outline/Q&A document.</b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Why do I ask this? You can see from the discussions in the group both in calls and on the list that uncertainty around these really isn't helpful.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The 23 April memo from Sidley/Adler does NOT set out a coherent picture of how these associations would "look and feel". Instead it responds to a bunch of quite specific questions, most of which are helpful, but which together only form
part of the picture. (<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_download_attachments_52890082_Sidley-2DAdler-2520-2D-2520Memo-2520-2528Unincorporated-2520Associations-2529.pdf-3Fversion-3D1-26modificationDate-3D1430069090000-26api-3Dv2&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=RvmiUE-YoxF3IOA03X7eprk0HqYGpxIs6K1aKEw8MA4&s=s16V25nrICJ9moKAbzrtSXW5lyJK_Jr_yesKZ__g8r4&e=" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/52890082/Sidley-Adler%20-%20Memo%20%28Unincorporated%20Associations%29.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1430069090000&api=v2</a>)<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am absolutely convinced that we have to be really really clear and open about what these associations would do, what they would look like, how they would sit alongside the SOs and ACs, not envelope them.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In the absence of clarity from us on this point, we are simply asking for confusion or making space for misdirection and F.U.D.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Because I am not from California, I can't write this myself.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thoughts?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Jordan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#888888">Jordan Carter<br>
<br>
Chief Executive <br>
<b>InternetNZ</b><br>
<br>
04 495 2118 (office) | <a href="tel:%2B64%2021%20442%20649" target="_blank">+64 21 442 649</a> (mob)<br>
<a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a> <br>
Skype: jordancarter<br>
<br>
<i>A better world through a better Internet </i><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Jordan Carter<br>
Chief Executive, InternetNZ <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="tel:%2B64-21-442-649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64-21-442-649</a> | <a>jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Sent on the run, apologies for brevity<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Jordan Carter<br>
Chief Executive, InternetNZ <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="tel:%2B64-21-442-649" value="+6421442649" target="_blank">+64-21-442-649</a> | <a href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz" target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Sent on the run, apologies for brevity<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
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