[ccwg-internet-governance] ccwg-internet-governance Digest, Vol 2, Issue 48

Evan Leibovitch evan at telly.org
Thu Jan 30 05:00:18 UTC 2014


Sorry, but I'll dissent.

I consider Marilyn's definition as more aspirational than real. It's nice
and squishy and explains well how things SHOULD be, and I fully agree with
that wish. But I have -- most readers of this message have -- a wealth of
examples of how the aspiration has not matched the reality.

Yes, staff comes and goes. But so do volunteers (some present company
excepted) -- how many ICANN employees need to be re-elected by their peers
every year or face term limits?

 Many aspects of ICANN structure can be changed on the whim of a Board
whose members have a fiduciary duty not to any group of stakeholders, nor
the public, but to the institution of ICANN itself (see the section on
"Duty of Loyalty", slide 7 of this
presentation<http://mex.icann.org/files/meetings/mexico2009/atlarge-summit-general-counsel-28feb09-en.pdf>by
ICANN General Counsel, but also repeated elsewhere).

As but one example -- the BGC and the ALAC Review recommended adding two
seats to the Board elected by the At-Large Community. Yet the Board -- on
its own unaccountable whim -- added only one. I state this, not to comment
on whether that was a good decision, but to illustrate the arbitrariness of
decisions that, at the end of the day, the "community" cannot enforce if
the Board sees the community wish as counter to the best interest of
ICANN-the-institution. I have heard in many corners a view of Board action
on issues such as IP protection as going against the bulk of the community,
yet it happens nonetheless. Countless other examples abound.

So, by any yardstick grounded in reality, "ICANN" is indeed the California
corporation, the body which gets sued and the body which has ultimate
authority and is EXPLICITLY NOT legally responsible directly to the
community. (Hint: We wouldn't need an ATRT if it was...) That the Board
puts in place these ACs and SOs is a legitimate part of decision-making
process, and one which we cherish (and are defending in this forum) for
very good reason. But let's not delude ourselves. ICANN needs the MSM to
attain global legitimacy, it does not require the MSM as a legal
dependency. A single letter from Larry Strickling can undo the result of
hundreds of person-hours of working group activity. The Board is free to
ignore all of our advice, indeed it is obligated to do so if it feels that
community-defined Good is add odds with its mandated loyalty.

That ICANN *ought* to be defined *by* its community is a most noble and
virtuous objective, frankly IMO it's what keeps many volunteers motivated.
But I suggest that for us to assume that it is an accomplished reality in
the here and now is to fool ourselves. I daresay that many outside the
ICANN bubble do not share a perception that the global community is in
charge, and for us to assert this as fact risks damaging our credibility as
a trustworthy advocate of the MSM.

I agree 100% with Marilyn when she says that

*"ICANN must be the community. NOT staff. NOT Board."*


But that doesn't mean we're there yet. Not even close in many critical
ways. For the purposes of this WG, let's stay grounded in the reality of
the day and the very real limits we work with. To that end and come full
circle, I prefer Phil's original definition that started this thread.

Just my personal opinion.

- Evan



On 29 January 2014 22:45, Stephanie Perrin <
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:

> I think that is an excellent definition, and it would be a mistake to try
> to make it more concise.
> Stephanie Perrin
> On 2014-01-29, at 5:41 PM, Phil Corwin wrote:
>
> > My apologies for missing today's call. I had fully intended to
> participate but messed up the time conversion from UTC. In that regard, I
> would ask that initial notification of a call time and date be sent in a
> separate e-mail with a relevant subject header and not just mixed in with
> all the other e-mail traffic on this mailing list.
> >
> > In regard to the question of defining ICANN for purposes of the CCWG
> Charter, I concur with Marilyn that the term should be regarded as
> encompassing the formal legal organization, its staff, and the
> participating community.
> >
> > While the DNS is global in nature and ICANN has many international
> aspects to it -- including the board and staff composition, the GAC's
> participation, the makeup of the participating community, etc. -- it should
> not be referred to as an international organization. An "international
> organization" has a rather precise meaning (IGO or INGO) and ICANN does not
> fit it at this time -- see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organization . As a legal
> matter and as every contracted party and ICANN consultant knows, ICANN is a
> California non-profit corporation.
> >
> > So one way to express this definition might be --  ICANN is a California
> non-profit corporation charged with technical coordination of the global
> domain name system. ICANN has offices around the globe and a Board and
> staff membership of international scope; its community is comprised of
> supporting organizations, advisory committees, and other individuals and
> entities whose makeup is likewise international in character.
> >
> > I know that's a mouthful but I'm not sure that ICANN can be defined in a
> short catchphrase.
> >
> > Best regards.
> >
> > Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal
> > Virtualaw LLC
> > 1155 F Street, NW
> > Suite 1050
> > Washington, DC 20004
> > 202-559-8597/Direct
> > 202-559-8750/Fax
> > 202-255-6172/cell
> >
> > Twitter: @VlawDC
> >
> > "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org [mailto:
> ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of
> ccwg-internet-governance-request at icann.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 4:06 PM
> > To: ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > Subject: ccwg-internet-governance Digest, Vol 2, Issue 48
> >
> > Send ccwg-internet-governance mailing list submissions to
> >       ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> >
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> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of ccwg-internet-governance digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Group Charter - Definition (Ariel Manoff)
> >   2. Re: Group Charter - Definition (Marilyn Cade)
> >   3. Re: Group Charter - Definition (Michele Neylon - Blacknight)
> >   4. Re: Group Charter - Definition (Michele Neylon - Blacknight)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:51:40 -0300
> > From: "Ariel Manoff" <amanoff at vmf.com.ar>
> > To: "'Michele Neylon - Blacknight'" <michele at blacknight.com>,
> >       <ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKcI30+Zha1BkcLHDoLqgPXCgAAAEAAAAMEeUS9sP49BkQb7TxMiefoBAAAAAA==@
> vmf.com.ar>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I believe that the best definition for ICANN is "organization"- This
> word is used to designate complex entities that include multiple aspects We
> can say an "International Organization".
> >
> > Hector
> >
> > H?ctor Ariel Manoff
> > Vitale, Manoff & Feilbogen
> > Viamonte 1145 10? Piso
> > C1053ABW Buenos Aires
> > Rep?blica Argentina
> > Te: (54-11) 4371-6100
> > Fax: (54-11) 4371-6365
> > E-mail: amanoff at vmf.com.ar
> > Web: http://www.vmf.com.ar
> >
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org
> > [mailto:ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de
> Michele Neylon - Blacknight Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de enero de 2014 17:39
> > Para: ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > Asunto: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >
> > All
> >
> > In the draft charter the term "ICANN" appears several times.
> >
> > On this evening's call I asked for clarification on this, as the term in
> of itself can be quite ambiguous.
> >
> > Each of us has our own understanding of what ICANN is depending on what
> we're talking about or who we are talking to.
> >
> > For an initiative with so many diverse groups etc., involved I feel it
> is important that we are clear about our usage of terminology and minimise
> the possible ambiguities.
> >
> > So is ICANN?
> > - the corporation (as Filiz pointed out, it can be sued and it can also
> enter into contracts)
> > - ICANN Staff
> > - ICANN the Community
> >
> > Marilyn Cade picked up on this theme also and expanded on it. Her points
> were very valid and referred to the temporal nature of some elements,
> namely the Board and Staff have a certain degree of fluidity, while the
> Community doesn't.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> > http://www.blacknight.co/
> > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > http://www.technology.ie
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> > Locall: 1850 929 929
> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ccwg-internet-governance mailing list
> > ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-internet-governance
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protecci?n de avast!
> Antivirus est? activa.
> > http://www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:02:44 -0500
> > From: Marilyn Cade <marilynscade at hotmail.com>
> > To: "amanoff at vmf.com.ar" <amanoff at vmf.com.ar>, "'Michele Neylon -
> >       Blacknight'"    <michele at blacknight.com>,
> >       "ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org"
> >       <ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> > Message-ID: <BAY169-W122B8E7ADC9D2E6AF13CFD9D3AC0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > I will think more, but frankly, I spent a lot of time on this when I was
> on the President's Strategy Committee [PSC], ICANN must be the community.
> > NOT staff. NOT Board.
> > Community.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: amanoff at vmf.com.ar
> >> To: michele at blacknight.com; ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> >> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:51:40 -0300
> >> Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >>
> >> I believe that the best definition for ICANN is "organization"- This
> word is
> >> used to designate complex entities that include multiple aspects We can
> say
> >> an "International Organization".
> >>
> >> Hector
> >>
> >> H?ctor Ariel Manoff
> >> Vitale, Manoff & Feilbogen
> >> Viamonte 1145 10? Piso
> >> C1053ABW Buenos Aires
> >> Rep?blica Argentina
> >> Te: (54-11) 4371-6100
> >> Fax: (54-11) 4371-6365
> >> E-mail: amanoff at vmf.com.ar
> >> Web: http://www.vmf.com.ar
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Mensaje original-----
> >> De: ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org
> >> [mailto:ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de
> Michele
> >> Neylon - Blacknight
> >> Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de enero de 2014 17:39
> >> Para: ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> >> Asunto: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >>
> >> All
> >>
> >> In the draft charter the term "ICANN" appears several times.
> >>
> >> On this evening's call I asked for clarification on this, as the term
> in of
> >> itself can be quite ambiguous.
> >>
> >> Each of us has our own understanding of what ICANN is depending on what
> >> we're talking about or who we are talking to.
> >>
> >> For an initiative with so many diverse groups etc., involved I feel it
> is
> >> important that we are clear about our usage of terminology and minimise
> the
> >> possible ambiguities.
> >>
> >> So is ICANN?
> >> - the corporation (as Filiz pointed out, it can be sued and it can also
> >> enter into contracts)
> >> - ICANN Staff
> >> - ICANN the Community
> >>
> >> Marilyn Cade picked up on this theme also and expanded on it. Her points
> >> were very valid and referred to the temporal nature of some elements,
> namely
> >> the Board and Staff have a certain degree of fluidity, while the
> Community
> >> doesn't.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Michele
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mr Michele Neylon
> >> Blacknight Solutions
> >> Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> >> http://www.blacknight.co/
> >> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> >> http://www.technology.ie
> >> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> >> Locall: 1850 929 929
> >> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> >> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> >> -------------------------------
> >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ccwg-internet-governance mailing list
> >> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-internet-governance
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protecci?n de
> avast! Antivirus est? activa.
> >> http://www.avast.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ccwg-internet-governance mailing list
> >> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-internet-governance
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/ccwg-internet-governance/attachments/20140129/203b248a/attachment-0001.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:04:02 +0000
> > From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com>
> > To: "amanoff at vmf.com.ar" <amanoff at vmf.com.ar>,
> >       "ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org"
> >       <ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <D1AC4482BED7C04DAC43491E9A9DBEC3902052D2 at BK-EXCHMBX01.blacknight.local>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hector
> >
> > There's a subtle, yet very important difference though.
> >
> > And that's what we need to clarify
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> > http://www.blacknight.co/
> > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > http://www.technology.ie
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> > Locall: 1850 929 929
> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ariel Manoff [mailto:amanoff at vmf.com.ar]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 8:52 PM
> > To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > Subject: RE: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >
> > I believe that the best definition for ICANN is "organization"- This
> word is used to designate complex entities that include multiple aspects We
> can say an "International Organization".
> >
> > Hector
> >
> > H?ctor Ariel Manoff
> > Vitale, Manoff & Feilbogen
> > Viamonte 1145 10? Piso
> > C1053ABW Buenos Aires
> > Rep?blica Argentina
> > Te: (54-11) 4371-6100
> > Fax: (54-11) 4371-6365
> > E-mail: amanoff at vmf.com.ar
> > Web: http://www.vmf.com.ar
> >
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org
> > [mailto:ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de
> Michele Neylon - Blacknight Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de enero de 2014 17:39
> > Para: ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > Asunto: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >
> > All
> >
> > In the draft charter the term "ICANN" appears several times.
> >
> > On this evening's call I asked for clarification on this, as the term in
> of itself can be quite ambiguous.
> >
> > Each of us has our own understanding of what ICANN is depending on what
> we're talking about or who we are talking to.
> >
> > For an initiative with so many diverse groups etc., involved I feel it
> is important that we are clear about our usage of terminology and minimise
> the possible ambiguities.
> >
> > So is ICANN?
> > - the corporation (as Filiz pointed out, it can be sued and it can also
> enter into contracts)
> > - ICANN Staff
> > - ICANN the Community
> >
> > Marilyn Cade picked up on this theme also and expanded on it. Her points
> were very valid and referred to the temporal nature of some elements,
> namely the Board and Staff have a certain degree of fluidity, while the
> Community doesn't.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> > http://www.blacknight.co/
> > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > http://www.technology.ie
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> > Locall: 1850 929 929
> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ccwg-internet-governance mailing list
> > ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-internet-governance
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protecci?n de avast!
> Antivirus est? activa.
> > http://www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:05:15 +0000
> > From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com>
> > To: Marilyn Cade <marilynscade at hotmail.com>, "amanoff at vmf.com.ar"
> >       <amanoff at vmf.com.ar>, "ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org"
> >       <ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <D1AC4482BED7C04DAC43491E9A9DBEC3902052DE at BK-EXCHMBX01.blacknight.local>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Marilyn
> >
> > And I'd tend to agree with you, but my fear (or concern) is that unless
> it is clearly laid down in writing then it leaves it open to interpretation
> and potential abuse.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> > http://www.blacknight.co/
> > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > http://www.technology.ie
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> > Locall: 1850 929 929
> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >
> > From: Marilyn Cade [mailto:marilynscade at hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:03 PM
> > To: amanoff at vmf.com.ar; Michele Neylon - Blacknight;
> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org
> > Subject: RE: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >
> >
> > I will think more, but frankly, I spent a lot of time on this when I was
> on the President's Strategy Committee [PSC],
> >
> > ICANN must be the community.
> >
> > NOT staff. NOT Board.
> >
> > Community.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: amanoff at vmf.com.ar<mailto:amanoff at vmf.com.ar>
> >> To: michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>;
> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org<mailto:
> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> >> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:51:40 -0300
> >> Subject: Re: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >>
> >> I believe that the best definition for ICANN is "organization"- This
> word is
> >> used to designate complex entities that include multiple aspects We can
> say
> >> an "International Organization".
> >>
> >> Hector
> >>
> >> H?ctor Ariel Manoff
> >> Vitale, Manoff & Feilbogen
> >> Viamonte 1145 10? Piso
> >> C1053ABW Buenos Aires
> >> Rep?blica Argentina
> >> Te: (54-11) 4371-6100
> >> Fax: (54-11) 4371-6365
> >> E-mail: amanoff at vmf.com.ar<mailto:amanoff at vmf.com.ar>
> >> Web: http://www.vmf.com.ar
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Mensaje original-----
> >> De: ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org<mailto:
> ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org>
> >> [mailto:ccwg-internet-governance-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de
> Michele
> >> Neylon - Blacknight
> >> Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 29 de enero de 2014 17:39
> >> Para: ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org<mailto:
> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org>
> >> Asunto: [ccwg-internet-governance] Group Charter - Definition
> >>
> >> All
> >>
> >> In the draft charter the term "ICANN" appears several times.
> >>
> >> On this evening's call I asked for clarification on this, as the term
> in of
> >> itself can be quite ambiguous.
> >>
> >> Each of us has our own understanding of what ICANN is depending on what
> >> we're talking about or who we are talking to.
> >>
> >> For an initiative with so many diverse groups etc., involved I feel it
> is
> >> important that we are clear about our usage of terminology and minimise
> the
> >> possible ambiguities.
> >>
> >> So is ICANN?
> >> - the corporation (as Filiz pointed out, it can be sued and it can also
> >> enter into contracts)
> >> - ICANN Staff
> >> - ICANN the Community
> >>
> >> Marilyn Cade picked up on this theme also and expanded on it. Her points
> >> were very valid and referred to the temporal nature of some elements,
> namely
> >> the Board and Staff have a certain degree of fluidity, while the
> Community
> >> doesn't.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Michele
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mr Michele Neylon
> >> Blacknight Solutions
> >> Hosting & Colocation, Domains
> >> http://www.blacknight.co/
> >> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> >> http://www.technology.ie
> >> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> >> Locall: 1850 929 929
> >> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> >> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> >> -------------------------------
> >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ccwg-internet-governance mailing list
> >> ccwg-internet-governance at icann.org<mailto:
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-- 
Evan Leibovitch
Toronto Canada

Em: evan at telly dot org
Sk: evanleibovitch
Tw: el56
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