[ChineseGP] [Japanesegp] 答?: 答?: Characters likely to cause offence

Mon May 18 16:01:02 UTC 2015

Hiro-san,

there seems to be a misunderstanding: 
- you are suggesting "removal of characters", 
- but in fact I made the point that we should keep the 2 characters under discussion, precisely because they have a long documented history, way before they were misused, for about 2 decades, by the Nazi régime. 

A further reason for keeping these 2 characters is that, in spite of their misuse between roughly 1930 to 1945 in Europe, their use as cultural and religious references has been continuous for more than 2000 years, mainly in Asia. This continues to be true today.

Finally, I would like to make clear that my suggestion of a mechanism for removal applies to characters which may be considered offensive TODAY, but in my mind this does not apply to the 2 characters discussed in the thread.

Best regards,
Jean-Jacques.

----- Mail original -----
De: "HiroHOTTA" <hotta at jprs.co.jp>
À: "Jean-Jacques Subrenat" <jjs at dyalog.net>
Cc: "Joe Zhang" <joezhang43 at hotmail.com>, wangwei at cnic.cn, KoreanGP at icann.org, ChineseGP at icann.org, JapaneseGP at icann.org
Envoyé: Lundi 18 Mai 2015 17:33:44
Objet: Re: [Japanesegp] [ChineseGP] 答?:  答?:  Characters likely to cause offence

Hello, Jean-Jacques.

I personally don't object the removal of characters 
that are very offensive to some others. I think we 
can follow the procedure if such procedure is globally 
established and employed by ICANN.

I am asking ICANN whether such removal should be solved 
by RootLGR project (i.e., each GP or IP) or not.

Regards,
Hiro

On Fri, 15 May 2015 10:27:12 +0200 (CEST)
"Subrenat, Jean-Jacques" <jjs at dyalog.net> wrote:
> Hello Hiro-san,
> 
> thank you for your response. It might be worth considering an alternative: include such scripts, unless there is a documented opposition, based on historical, linguistic or technical factors.
> 
> In practical terms, it may be useful to draw up a list of characters which present similar problems. This list would be sent out to our membership lists (all C, J, K) for comment within a one-month period. Those characters meeting no opposition could then be included; those presenting a problem would then be either submitted to further examination, or rejected, and the rationale for either decision would be documented. Also, it may be useful to provide a mechanism for periodic review.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jean-Jacques.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "HiroHOTTA" <hotta at jprs.co.jp>
> A: "Jean-Jacques Subrenat" <jjs at dyalog.net>
> Cc: "Joe Zhang" <joezhang43 at hotmail.com>, "王?" <wangwei at cnic.cn>, KoreanGP at icann.org, ChineseGP at icann.org, JapaneseGP at icann.org
> Envoye: Jeudi 14 Mai 2015 18:38:31
> Objet: Re: [Japanesegp] [ChineseGP] 答?:  答?:  Characters likely to cause offence
> 
> I may agree to that in principle.
> 
> But here I just want to say who should think about that and 
> who is responsible for that?
> 
> If it's within GP's mandate, GP cannot afford that.
> If it's within IP's mandate, further question may be 'who 
> can decide some specific characters should not listed in 
> MSR' ?
> 
> Hiro
> 
> On Thu, 14 May 2015 11:19:40 +0200 (CEST)
> "Subrenat, Jean-Jacques" <jjs at dyalog.net> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > 
> > the discussion on 卍 and ? must abide by some wider principle. In this case, the principle of historic precedence should be respected: the Sanskrit svastika, which can be traced back at least to the Neolithic, is unquestionably more ancient than any more recent use of this script, or its tragic misuse by the Nazi regime in the first half of the 20th century.
> > 
> > I would therefore urge that we keep the historic Sanskrit script present in the list, insofar as it has been adopted in Chinese, Japanese or Korean usage, for instance in religious or other texts.
> > 
> > To be perfectly clear, by taking this position of respecting the original Sanskrit script, I am in no way condoning the despicable Nazi regime that later employed this as its trademark.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Jean-Jacques.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Mail original -----
> > De: "Joe Zhang" <joezhang43 at hotmail.com>
> > A: "王?" <wangwei at cnic.cn>, "Yoshiro YONEYA" <yoshiro.yoneya at jprs.co.jp>, "Chris' 'Dillon" <c.dillon at ucl.ac.uk>
> > Cc: ChineseGP at icann.org, KoreanGP at icann.org, JapaneseGP at icann.org
> > Envoye: Mercredi 13 Mai 2015 14:18:33
> > Objet: [ChineseGP] 答?:  答?:  Characters likely to cause offence
> > 
> > Besides卍and ?, there would be many "sensitive" even "dirty" characters in the repertoire. I agree with Wang Wei, let's leave such issue to IP or next working stage.
> > BTW. Sorry for not being able to attend the important meeting. I believe your guys will come up with good result.
> > The best regards,
> > 
> > Zhang 
> > 
> > -----?件原件-----
> > ?件人: chinesegp-bounces at icann.org [mailto:chinesegp-bounces at icann.org] 代表 王?
> > ?送??: 2015年5月12日 10:35
> > 收件人: 'Yoshiro YONEYA'; 'Dillon, Chris'
> > 抄送: KoreanGP at icann.org; ChineseGP at icann.org; JapaneseGP at icann.org
> > 主?: [ChineseGP] 答?: Characters likely to cause offence
> > 
> > I guess both of 卍and ? (swastika, ????????) were imported into Chinese characters from ancient India Buddhism hundreds years ago Both of them mean something like luck or fortune in east Asia. Most western people don’t know them until one of them was borrowed by Nazi.
> > 
> > What about  leave the problem to IP or policy guys. Let's finish repertoire, variant coordination and generation rules first.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----?件原件-----
> > ?件人: chinesegp-bounces at icann.org [mailto:chinesegp-bounces at icann.org] 代表 Yoshiro YONEYA
> > ?送??: 2015年5月12日 9:55
> > 收件人: Dillon, Chris
> > 抄送: ChineseGP at icann.org; KoreanGP at icann.org; JapaneseGP at icann.org
> > 主?: Re: [ChineseGP] Characters likely to cause offence
> > 
> > Dear Chris-san,
> > 
> > > I suspect there may be other characters in there that could cause 
> > > offence, but ? 5350 could be horribly abused. I realize that the character it represents is used innocently in temples.
> > 
> > The reason why this character (U+5350) is in J-LGR-2 is that this is defined as variant of U+534D in C-LGR-1.  U+534D is in
> > J-LGR-1 repertoire, so it was integrated into J-LGR-2 by proposed integration algorithm.
> > 
> > As you see in J-LGR-2.xlsx, U+5350 is marked as (o) or (b), so it will never appear on Root zone if it is used in applied-for string as Japanese IDN TLD.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > --
> > Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya at jprs.co.jp>
> > 
> > On Mon, 11 May 2015 14:02:14 +0000 "Dillon, Chris" <c.dillon at ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear Yoneya-san,
> > > 
> > > I mentioned in my last email that one of the things I found in J-LGR-2.xlsx was of a more serious nature.
> > > 
> > > I suspect there may be other characters in there that could cause 
> > > offence, but ? 5350 could be horribly abused. I realize that the character it represents is used innocently in temples.
> > > 
> > > It is not our responsibility to make decisions about cases such as 
> > > this and as far as I know, no part of the existing system deals with 
> > > them. However, having observed long discussion over cases such as .xxx and .sucks, alarm bells do go off and one feels one should draw 5350 to the attention of colleagues.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Chris.
> > > --
> > > Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital 
> > > Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int
> > > 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
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