<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Hi everyone just wanted to repeat the qs I asked at the council yesterday regarding Red Cross extensions that include Red Crystal and Red Lion and Sun and phrases wrt these terms. Wanted see if I could more info on that...basis and protections of the phrases etc.<br><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards, </div><div><br></div><div>Zahid Jamil</div><div>Barrister-at-law</div><div>Jamil & Jamil</div><div>Barristers-at-law</div><div>219-221 Central Hotel Annexe</div><div>Merewether Road, Karachi. Pakistan</div><div>Cell: +923008238230</div><div>Tel: +92 21 5680760 / 5685276 / 5655025</div><div>Fax: +92 21 5655026</div><div><a href="http://www.jamilandjamil.com">www.jamilandjamil.com</a></div><div><br></div><div>Notice / Disclaimer</div><div>This message contains confidential information and its contents are being communicated only for the intended recipients . If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and delete it from your system. The contents above may contain/are the intellectual property of Jamil & Jamil, Barristers-at-Law, and constitute privileged information protected by attorney client privilege. The reproduction, publication, use, amendment, modification of any kind whatsoever of any part or parts (including photocopying or storing it in any medium by electronic means whether or not transiently or incidentally or some other use of this communication) without prior written permission and consent of Jamil & Jamil is prohibited.</div><div><br></div>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 11 Mar 2012, at 10:50, "Shatan, Gregory S." <<a href="mailto:GShatan@ReedSmith.com">GShatan@ReedSmith.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">The fact that the GAC may not have full consensus should not
be surprising. It would probably be more surprising if they did -- on this
or any other issue.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">As for the OECD, I think their letter was based largely on a
set of false premises and a lack of understanding of the rationale for setting
the IOC and RCRC apart. I'm sure this was not intentional, but it does
discount the substance of their concerns.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">In a sense, I am sympathetic with their desire to
bootstrap IGOs onto the proposed protection for the IOC/RCRC. We know
that they would like similar protections. It's not surprising that they
would try to make an argument that they are just like or better than the
IOC/RCRC. The fact that they could not come up with a high quality
argument is a sign that it will not be so easy to argue convincingly that
IGO's are the same as the IOC/RCRC and thus entitled to the same
protection. "Slippery slope" arguments like those made below only
work when distinctions are difficult to draw between those included and those
excluded. Where there are clear distinctions, as there are here, a
slippery slope argument really doesn't hold water, and can even tend to be
a "scare tactic." For example, one of the potential Republican nominees
for US President, Rick Santorum, has used such specious slippery slope
arguments in attempts to support his opposition to gay sex and marriage:</font>
<p><font face="Calibri"><font color="#808080"><span class="272530216-11032012">"</span>[I have] a problem with homosexual acts, as I
would with what I would consider to be acts outside of traditional heterosexual
relationships . . . if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to
consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you
have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to
adultery.<span class="272530216-11032012">" </span><span class="272530216-11032012">-- </span>Rick Santorum on gay sex, AP
interview</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri"><font color="#808080"><span class="272530216-11032012">"</span>In every society, the definition of marriage
has not ever to my knowledge included homosexuality. That's not to pick on
homosexuality. It's not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the
case may be. It is one thing. And when you destroy that you have a dramatic
impact on the quality.<span class="272530216-11032012">"</span> <span class="272530216-11032012">-- </span>Rick Santorum, AP
interview</font></font></p></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Thus, I would tend to discard the slippery slope argument that
if IOC and RCRC opens the door to every other group that would like the same
protections, and that the only way to deal with future petitioners is to bar the
door to the IOC and RCRC.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Thank you.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Greg Shatan</font> </span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="272530216-11032012"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font><br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Winterfeldt, Brian
[mailto:bwinterfeldt@steptoe.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:55
AM<br><b>To:</b> 'J. Scott Evans'; Neuman, Jeff<br><b>Cc:</b> Konstantinos
Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Shatan, Gregory S.;
<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>; <a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org"><a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a></a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE:
[gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC<br></font><br></div>
<div></div><font size="2" face="Calibri, sans-serif">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font><br>I support Jeff as well. I
think the path forward should not change unless there is a different directive
given by the GAC.</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>Best regards,<br><br>Brian</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arrow"><u><b>Brian J. Winterfeldt, Esq.<br></b></u><font color="#3399ff" size="2">Steptoe & Johnson LLP</font><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> </font></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial, sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial, sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org"><a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a></a>]
On Behalf Of J. Scott Evans<br>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:34 AM<br>To:
Neuman, Jeff<br>Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter;
Gregory Shatan; <a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>; <a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org"><a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a></a><br>Subject: Re:
[gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>Dear All, </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>I completely agree with Jeff. Our job at this point is to stat
the course. The issues raised by OECD are for the GAC to debate and come
to consensus and, even then, we could conclude that NGO protection is
unwarranted.</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>J. Scott</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>On Mar 11, 2012, at 3:06 PM, "Neuman, Jeff" <<a href="mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us">Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Konstantinos,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> The correspondence yesterday was the same correspondence we have had
for months. Lets not jump to any conclusions because of the statements of
a VERY small minority of GAC members. Remember, the GAC cannot change
course without a consensus of the GAC. If the Chair, the US, the EU and
others object to changing course within the GAC, then the GAC cannot by its very
definition of consensus change course.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Lets not make more of this issue than it is at this point. Plus,
remember, if the GAC were to change course, we could always say no. And
yes, there is a rationale to treat the IOC and Red Cross differently than the
other OECD organizations (according to the GAC). The GAC letter explained
that and it was reiterated by Greg in his insightful e-mail.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Best regards,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Jeffrey J. Neuman </div>
<div>> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for
the use of the recipient(s) named above and may contain confidential and/or
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you have received
this e-mail message in error and any review, dissemination, distribution, or
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communication in error, please notify us immediately and delete the original
message.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> -----Original Message-----</div>
<div>> From: Konstantinos Komaitis [<a href="mailto:k.komaitis@strath.ac.uk"><a href="mailto:k.komaitis@strath.ac.uk">mailto:k.komaitis@strath.ac.uk</a></a>] </div>
<div>> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:27 AM</div>
<div>> To: Gomes, Chuck; Neuman, Jeff; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Gregory Shatan;
<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>; '<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a>'</div>
<div>> Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Dear all,</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> I am speaking without being present in yesterday's meeting so I can
only comment on what I am reading from the email thread. Although I do
appreciate the argument that the official GAC position has not changed (meaning
there is not a follow-up 'official' letter from Heather asking for a change of
course) the fact that we heard various GAC members expressing reservations and
the potential implications of such protections should certainly be taken on
board. This is significant as it manifests that the GAC might not be speaking as
one voice in this issue; at the very minimum, these are new considerations that
the DT should take on board.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> At the same time, we certainly cannot underestimate the letter that
came from the OECD. What appeared to be just a possibility, it now appears that
it is very likely that once the protections for these two orgs are set, more
will come and use it as a precedent to get the same amount of protection. and,
one could easily argue that there is potentially a more valid claim for these
orgs to have their names protected than the IOC or the Red Cross. Are we really
suggesting here that the work of the IOC, for instance, is more important or
valuable than that of UNESCO or WIPO?</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> I am quite surprised with the insistence to approach this issue the
same way we have been approaching it, even in light of these new developments,
which I believe are significant.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Thanks</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Konstantinos</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> From: Chuck Gomes
<<a href="mailto:cgomes@verisign.com">cgomes@verisign.com</a><<a href="mailto:cgomes@verisign.com">mailto:cgomes@verisign.com</a>>></div>
<div>> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 13:54:34 +0000</div>
<div>> To: Jeff Neuman
<<a href="mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us">Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us</a><<a href="mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us">mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us</a>>>, Wolfgang
Kleinwächter
<<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a><<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>>>,
Gregory Shatan
<<a href="mailto:GShatan@ReedSmith.com">GShatan@ReedSmith.com</a><<a href="mailto:GShatan@ReedSmith.com">mailto:GShatan@ReedSmith.com</a>>>,
"<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>>"
<<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>>>,
"'<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a><mailto:'<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a>>'"
<<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">mailto:council@gnso.icann.org</a>>></div>
<div>> Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> It seems to me that we would need another letter from Heather
requesting a change of direction before we would consider changing course.
We have based our work from the letter sent us stating the GAC request so until
she as chair states that the GAC has changed their request, we should only rely
on the official request we have. On a side note, I would be very bothered
if the GAC changed their request significantly after we had gone to all the
effort we have to be responsive to their request and would like to think they
wouldn't do that.</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> Chuck</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> -----Original Message-----</div>
<div>> From:
<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>> [<a href="mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-">mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-</a>
<a href="mailto:dt@icann.org">dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:dt@icann.org">mailto:dt@icann.org</a>>] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff</div>
<div>> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:36 AM</div>
<div>> To: '"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"'; 'Shatan, Gregory S.'; 'gnso-iocrc-
<a href="mailto:dt@icann.org">dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:dt@icann.org">mailto:dt@icann.org</a>>';
'<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a><mailto:'<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a>>'</div>
<div>> Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC I do not think that
this is a wise way forward. We cannot allow what a very few members of the
GAC say during an open meeting to detract from our overall position and
recommendations. I got a full briefing on the GAC discussion yesterday and
do not believe we need to change course.</div>
<div>> We should only change our course if during today's discussion between
the GAC and GNSO necessitate the need to do so. It is really not fair for
us to base our actions on what a very small minority of the GAC members
state. It would be like another group changing their course on what only a
few few Councilors state. GAC members, like Councilors, are diverse.
Simply because a small percentage of Councilors feel one way and express their
views, that may not impact the view of the COuncil as a whole.</div>
<div>> Sent with Good (<a href="http://www.good.com"><a href="http://www.good.com">www.good.com</a></a>)</div>
<div>> -----Original Message-----</div>
<div>> From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"</div>
<div>> [<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"><a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a></a>]</div>
<div>> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 05:28 AM Eastern Standard Time</div>
<div>> To: Shatan, Gregory S.; Neuman, Jeff;
<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org">mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@icann.org</a>>;</div>
<div>> <a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">council@gnso.icann.org</a><<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org">mailto:council@gnso.icann.org</a>></div>
<div>> Subject: AW: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC</div>
<div>> Greogry:</div>
<div>> I hope that the OECD and other intergovernmental organizations can
understand the accurate picture of the "criteria" we considered and reconsider
the statements below. While we should welcome their input, a discussion
that is based on a mischaracterization is only going to be a dead end.</div>
<div>> Wolfgang:</div>
<div>> This is the point. We "hope" that the OECD and other IGOs will
understand. What happens if they don`t? In yesterdays GAC meeting (I was there)
it became clear that there is no consensus among the GAC members. While Susan
and Marc defended the position they gave us in the joint meeting, other GAC
members introduced a broader view and disagreed partly with the US and the UK.
The European Commission was outspoken in calling similar rights for IGOs.
I respect when Susan and Marc argue, our governments are members of those
organisations and the UK and the US government will not support any attempt by
an IGO to call for specific rights to have the name protected in all variations
(as the "four" red organisations have done this now with 100+ words and
combination of words) But what will happen if the UK and the US do not have a
majority in this IGO? My warning yesterday was that I see a risk that we are
pulled into an endless debate over who is in a "unique position" and gets
sp!</div>
<div>ec!</div>
<div>> ial rights and who is not. Chuck yesterday already recognized
that there "could" be also a third organisaiton similar to the IOC and
IRC.</div>
<div>> And what happens if there "could" be first five organisations arguing
that they are "unique" and than 50?</div>
<div>> To avoid this and to react in a constructive way to the GAC/Board
letters my proposal is to have very general language to strengthen the
protection of names of such organisations (as IOC and IGOs) but not to mention
any single organisation by name. BTW, the existing mechanisms for the protection
of those names which are already in the guidebook (as early warning and others),
are in my eyes sufficient enough to prevent any misuse by third parties. I do
not believe that a cybersquatter will risk 200.000.00 USD to start a battle with
the IOC or the IRC etc. And if the International Oceanographic Commission of
UNESCO would go for .ioc they would probably consult in advance with the Olympic
Committee (the other IOC is an intergovernmental treaty organisation). So it
seems to me that we are in a rather theoretical debate. Lets be pragmatic and
say, this is what we do for the first phase. We will review this in the light of
experiences with the first phase and will come back with!</div>
<div> a!</div>
<div>> dditional language (if the existing dispute resolution mechnisms
- which has not yet been tested - demonstrate too much weaknesses). And BTW this
is only for the Top Level. The second level is a different issue and we will
come back to the second level (where is no urgency) later.</div>
<div>> To be consistent with our position so far we can argue that yesterdays
discussion within the GAC has triggered a debate within the GNSO to rethink its
approach. We have in the previous months trusted UK and US and followed the GAC
letter but we learned yesterday that there is no real consensus among the GAC
members themselves which affects obviously also our approach. And we should not
underestimate the OECD argument.</div>
<div>> And even more if you go to the letter Steve Crocker has written to
the</div>
<div>> 49 member states of the African Union and read the arguments of Steve,
why he rejects a special proteciton of "africa" in its variations, than we
should try to be also consistent with positions taken by the chair of the board.
As an African Union member state I would raise the issue why a
non-governmental Committee gets special rights and why ICANN rejects this to the
lagrest intergovenrmental body in Africa? Again whe should avoid to become be
pulled into such an endless chain of controver!</div>
<div>> sial discussions.</div>
<div>> Thank you.</div>
<div>> Wolfgang</div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div>> </div>
<div> </div>
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