[CWG-Stewardship] [IANA-issues] Oversight -- with or without Internet end users?

[Eduardo Diaz]

@All:

A couple of though/questions.

If IANA is moved outside ICANN,  where will be it incorporated if at all?

What about proposing more than one IANA like structure/organization/company
(or whatever) outside ICANN to promote competition among themself? In other
words, if you do not like the services provided by X you contract with Z
and so forth.

-ed

On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello Tijani, Olivier, all
>
> In view of the recent events, I think it will be good to hear from list
> members on what we expect the transitioned oversight for names to look
> like. This will help inform those of us on the cwg.
>
> I will really encourage as many members on this list to subscribe to the
> cwg list as well so things can be more synchronised in real-time as things
> are moving at an  exponential pace and I fear we may overtook some aspects
> if we don't have as many eye balls on the watch.
>
> Cheers!
>
> sent from Google nexus 4
> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
> On 25 Oct 2014 01:40, "Tijani BEN JEMAA" <tijani.benjemaa at planet.tn>
> wrote:
>
>>  Olivier and Alan,
>>
>>
>>
>> I share the point of Olivier. I have the feeling that the trend is to
>> give the role to the DNS industry, ignoring the remaining stakeholders and
>> especially in our case the end users. In the CCWG charter drafting team,
>> someone from GNSO chaired the first call and said that they are waiting the
>> ccNSO to appoint a co-chair. I asked the following question:
>>
>> How the chairs have been chosen? While I understood that for the CWG
>> charter drafting team, the co-chairs were from GNSO and ccNSO because the
>> CWG was mainly about the transition of the stewardship of the IANA naming
>> function, I can’t see why it is also the GNSO and the ccNSO who are de
>> facto chairing this team who will draft the charter of the ICANN
>> accountability and governance CCWG.
>>
>>                 I also made it clear that I don’t contest those chairs or
>> their affiliation, but need to understand.
>>
>> The answer was very evasive, and no reason was provided. I think that
>> they think that it’s their business, and we are there to complete the MSM
>> scene only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *Tijani BEN JEMAA*
>>
>> Executive Director
>>
>> Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*)
>>
>> Phone:  + 216 41 649 605
>>
>> Mobile: + 216 98 330 114
>>
>> Fax:       + 216 70 853 376
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *De :* iana-issues-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:
>> iana-issues-bounces at atlarge-lists.icann.org] *De la part de* Olivier MJ
>> Crepin-Leblond
>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 24 octobre 2014 19:52
>> *À :* Alan Greenberg; iana-issues at atlarge-lists.icann.org
>> *Objet :* Re: [IANA-issues] Oversight -- with or without Internet end
>> users?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Alan,
>>
>> well -- this is where the idea of creation of a DNSA - the DNS Authority,
>> which is advocated by Milton Mueller's paper
>> http://www.internetgovernance.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/ICANNreformglobalizingIANAfinal.pdf
>> takes hold. However, it is devoid of any end user input. Upon discussion on
>> the CWG, Milton's now mentioned there would be two seats on a "DROC"
>> (whatever that means -- DNS Regulatory Oversight Committee?) for the GAC...
>> which again means nothing because as someone quite rightly reminded the
>> mailing list, members of the GAC cannot represent the GAC - they represent
>> their own country only.
>>
>> Note that not one time is the "end user" mentioned anywhere in the above
>> paper.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>>
>>  On 24/10/2014 19:16, Alan Greenberg wrote:
>>
>> Olivier, you are probably correct about the split, but I find it hard to
>> accept any situation where IANA can be allowed to with impunity not follow
>> policy.
>>
>> I will wait a bit for any further comments here before posting to the CWG
>> list.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> At 24/10/2014 01:50 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Alan,
>>
>> I think your observations are right on target. I can however certainly
>> see serious pushback about the advocating of the following:
>>
>>
>> *"If the oversight is purely by the ccTLD and gTLD community, then there
>> is no mechanism to correct IANA diverging from policy, essentially giving
>> the operational communities, with the collusion of IANA, the ability to
>> override policy (essentially a veto of policy established by the MSM." *
>> This, in my opinion, is going to be the huge disagreement and with all
>> parties showing entrenched positions at the moment, I do not know how this
>> deadlock will be resolved.
>>
>> Forgetting all of the other procedural stuff which is currently going on
>> in the CWG, I feel that this is probably going to be the matter to resolve.
>> Suggestions anyone?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>>
>> On 24/10/2014 17:33, Alan Greenberg wrote:
>>
>>  Interesting issue.
>>
>> Apart from wanting to feel loved and part of the club, to substantively
>> justify the larger community being part of the oversight body, we need a
>> scenario where oversight by the operational TLD entities is not sufficient.
>>
>> Consider scenario where:
>> - the ccTLD and gTLD community are satisfied;
>> - IANA is following policy;
>> - users, industry, or some other part of the MSM are not happy.
>>
>> The issue should be addressed by changing the policy, which by both
>> Milton and Greg's definition, does involve the entire MSM.
>>
>> The remaining scenario is:
>> - the ccTLD and gTLD community are satisfied;
>> - IANA is *NOT* following policy;
>> - users, industry, or some other part of the MSM are not happy that lack
>> of following policy, either because of undesireable outcomes or simply
>> beleiving that IANA must adhere to established policy.
>>
>> If the oversight is purely by the ccTLD and gTLD community, then there is
>> no mechanism to correct IANA diverging from policy, essentially giving the
>> operational communities, with the collusion of IANA, the ability to
>> override policy (essentially a veto of policy established by the MSM.
>>
>> Am I missing something here? Would there be some OTHER mechanism for
>> getting IANA to follow policy if the only overseer were happy with them not
>> doing so.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> At 24/10/2014 10:56 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
>>
>>  Hello all,
>>
>> no doubt you have been following the discussions on the CWG Stewardship
>> list.
>> Greg Shatan mentioned (below) that all Stakeholder Groups should be part
>> of the entity/group with ICANN oversight.
>> You'll note the robust response from Milton Mueller. I must say I think
>> that I would agree with Greg and disagree with Milton, but what do you
>> think? Milton makes some convincing points too.
>>
>> Our At-Large WG needs to be quite clear about what would be acceptable
>> for Internet users.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] [IANA-issues] Fwd: Names Community vs the
>> other two communities
>> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 19:38:43 +0000
>> From: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> <mueller at syr.edu>
>> To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>,
>> cwg-stewardship at icann.org <cwg-stewardship at icann.org>
>> <cwg-stewardship at icann.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.  *All Stakeholder Groups should be part of the Entity/Group with
>> ICANN Oversight*.  Oversight of the IANA functions for the naming
>> community should not be left solely (or even primarily) to its direct
>> "customers."  An essential part of the multistakeholder construct is that
>> all Internet stakeholders (aka "the Global Multistakeholder Community") are
>> affected, directly or indirectly, by these matters.  This CWG is roughly
>> representative of those stakeholders.  Any group or entity designated or
>> created to hold steward/oversight responsibility should be similarly
>> representative.
>>
>> MM: I disagree at the most fundamental level. This position is based on a
>> fallacy. The fallacy is to confuse the accountability and input of
>> ICANN̢۪s policy making process with the accountability of and input into
>> the IANA functions.
>>
>> All stakeholders should have a voice in and fair representation in the
>> process of policy development. But once a policy is agreed, the
>> implementation of policies by the IANA is a derivative technical and
>> operational function in which its direct customers are the primary
>> stakeholders. Broad public oversight would be meaningless at best (because
>> random members of the public would not know what is going on at that level)
>> and dangerous at worst (because there would be temptations to circumvent
>> agreed policies by politically intervening at the implementation level).
>>
>> I suspect that people who argue for broad representation of IANA
>> contracting function are people who want there to be a capability for some
>> kind of political circumvention of the policy process at the IANA level. In
>> other words, they think policy should be made by IANA rather than by ICANN.
>> That’s wrong, fundamentally wrong, and that is why IGP – and many
>> others – have argued as a principle that policy and IANA implementation
>> need to be clearly separated. If you want to change policy, do it in the
>> policy process. If you want to monitor technical implementation of a policy
>> by a registry, the operators of a registry are in the best position to do
>> that. Yes, there should be some public interest representation in a
>> contracting authority (IGP proposed that, too) but mainly for transparency
>> purposes and for keeping them honest. IANA should be primarily accountable
>> to the people who actually use its services and whose basic functions and
>> activities are dependent on those services.
>>
>> Whether or not one thinks they used it, the US government̢۪s authority
>> over modifications to the root zone created the potential for that kind of
>> political intervention at the implementation level. This set a very bad
>> precedent for the world that we are still dealing with. Now some people are
>> trying to reproduce that situation by making IANA oversight a way for
>> interest groups who don̢۪t get what they want in a policy process to get
>> a second, back door bite at the apple. Let̢۪s reject that clearly.
>>
>> If one knows what the performance of the IANA functions actually are, the
>> idea that every stakeholder in the world should be engaged in
>> “oversight†of its performance is pretty ridiculous. You might as well
>> say there should be public, multistakeholder oversight over what
>> secretaries a registry hires, what cars they rent, what buildings they live
>> in. After all if their cars break down you as a customer might be affected,
>> right? If their building power goes out, you might be affected, right?
>>
>> If the ccTLD for .za submits a request for a change in its root zone file
>> data neither you, Greg – nor I – are in a position to say whether the
>> request should happen or whether it has been implemented correctly. You may
>> argue that internet users under .za will be affected if the IANA
>> implementation of a root zone change for .za is performed badly, but the
>> answer is that the .za registry would be affected immediately and far more
>> damagingly than any individual customer would be, and in terms of both
>> incentives and knowledge, is in a much better position to prevent that from
>> happening than any other stakeholder. So if you really care about the
>> security, accuracy and accountability of registry changes, we will be
>> relying on the primary users, no matter what kind of a structure we set up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>
>> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
>>
>> http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
>>
>>
>>
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