<div dir="ltr">Bertrand,<div><br></div><div>Every time someone has tried to demonstrate that there is an MoU that is signed by a body that is not a legal entity, the result has been the same. Voila -- a legal entity pops up on the agreement.</div><div><br></div><div>Avri pointed out that ISOC (which is a legal entity) signed the IETF MoU</div><div><br></div><div>The ICANN/NRO MoU was signed by each of the RIRs (which are legal entities).</div><div><br></div><div>The W3C website says "<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">In administrative terms: W3C is administered via a joint agreement among these "Host Institutions": </span><a href="http://www.csail.mit.edu/" style="color:rgb(0,110,198);text-decoration:none;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(168,191,207);padding-bottom:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px"><acronym title="Massachusetts Institute of Technology" style="border:0px">MIT</acronym> </a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">, </span><a href="http://www.ercim.org/" style="color:rgb(0,110,198);text-decoration:none;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(168,191,207);padding-bottom:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px"><acronym title="European Research Consortium for Informatics and Mathematics" style="border:0px">ERCIM</acronym> </a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">, </span><a href="http://www.keio.ac.jp/" style="color:rgb(0,110,198);text-decoration:none;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(168,191,207);padding-bottom:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">Keio University</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">, and </span><a href="http://ev.buaa.edu.cn/" style="color:rgb(0,110,198);text-decoration:none;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(168,191,207);padding-bottom:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">Beihang University</a><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">." Elsewhere in the site it says "</span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21.2543983459473px">W3C is a contractual entity arising from agreements between the "Host institutions" and W3C Members." </span>W3C Member Agreements are signed by the host universities and by the member. So again, all the contracts are between legal entities. The Joint Agreement doesn't appear to be publicly available (at least not easily findable), but I am quite confident that my conclusions are correct -- where the W3C appears to enter into a contract, it is actually the host institutions on the agreement.</div><div><br></div><div>In sum, contracting is linked indisputably with some sort of legal entity (of which corporations is a major type, along with partnerships -- both in various types -- and other entities recognized as legal entities).</div><div><br></div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Bertrand de La Chapelle <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bdelachapelle@gmail.com" target="_blank">bdelachapelle@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Sorry to insist, my legal background may be lacking, but:<div><br></div><div>1) I am sure that the W3C, while not incorporated, signed its "host agreements" with three universities. So, contracting may not be linked so indisputably with formal incorporation.</div><div><br></div><div>2) the ccNSO and the gNSO are structures within ICANN for the purpose of policy-making and in that regard under the ICANN Board for validation. However, they do perform other useful functions for the respective communities without having to refer to the ICANN Board. as a matter of fact, a lot in the ccNSO relates to internal issues. </div><div><br></div><div>Nothing would prevent in my view conferring them with a specific role regarding the IANA function, that would not be subject to the Board validation, should we collectively decide to follow that route. </div><div><br></div><div>This would seem to me much more bottom up and distributed that creating a single new, different structure for the sole purpose of contracting, with the concerns that some people have. Aren't we too unimaginatively trying to mimic the currant arrangement?</div><div><br></div><div>After all, we have not discussed in detail (or I missed it) the composition of the PRT, but my guess is that it would leverage such existing structures. So why not explore doing it also for the agreement part?</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>B. </div><div><br></div><div> </div></font></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span class=""><br clear="all"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><table width="600" border="0" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:1em;color:rgb(38,38,38)"><tbody><tr><td colspan="3" height="5"></td></tr><tr style="font-size:13px;color:rgb(176,173,176)"><td colspan="3">"<em>Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes</em>", Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>("<em>There is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans</em>")</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" height="10"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><span style="color:rgb(0,138,204);text-transform:uppercase">BERTRAND DE LA CHAPELLE</span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Internet & Jurisdiction Project | Director</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">email <a href="mailto:bdelachapelle@internetjurisdiction.net" alt="email Bertrand de la Chapelle" style="color:rgb(159,157,159);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">bdelachapelle@internetjurisdiction.net</a></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">email <a href="mailto:bdelachapelle@gmail.com" alt="email Bertrand de la Chapelle" style="color:rgb(159,157,159);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">bdelachapelle@gmail.com</a></td></tr><tr colspan="3"><td>twitter <a href="https://twitter.com/IJurisdiction" alt="Internet & Jurisdiction Twitter Accompt" style="color:rgb(159,157,159);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">@IJurisdiction</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/bdelachapelle" alt="Paul Fehlinger Twitter" style="color:rgb(159,157,159);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">@bdelachapelle</a></td></tr><tr colspan="3"><td>mobile <span style="color:rgb(159,157,159)"><a href="tel:%2B33%20%280%296%2011%2088%2033%2032" value="+33611883332" target="_blank">+33 (0)6 11 88 33 32</a></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><a href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" alt="Internet & Jurisdiction Website" style="color:rgb(159,157,159);text-decoration:none" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net</a></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" height="5"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><img src="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/InternetJurisdiction-Logo-w300px.png" alt="A GLOBAL MULTI-STAKEHOLDER DIALOGUE PROCESS" width="300" style="margin:0px;border:none"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" height="5"></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div>
<br></span><div><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Avri Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#330033">
hi,<br>
<br>
GNSO and ccNSO have no ability to sign a contract with anyone, they
are just parts of ICANN and ICANn cannot sign a contract with
itself.<br>
<br>
The contracting authority for IANA must be outside ICANN and it must
be an entity that is capable of signing a contract.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
avri</font></span><div><div><br>
<br>
<div>On 01-Dec-14 17:13, Bertrand de La
Chapelle wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Avri,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want to clarify. You wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><i>The problem is that if the ICANN internal
multistakeholder community says A, the ICANN Board can say
Not A, and there is NOTHING we can do about it. </i> </div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<table width="600">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" height="5">The avenue I am
exploring is to empower the ccNSO and the gNSO <u>as
such</u> with the capacity to sign an MoU with
the chosen IANA contractor (and to choose it).
In that approach, the ICANN Board would NOT be
in the loop. <br>
<br>
Does that clarify and answer your concern?<br>
<br>
B.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" height="5"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Avri
Doria <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div><span> <br>
<div>On 01-Dec-14 16:40, Seun Ojedeji wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">- ICANN has built a highly
diverse multi-stakeholder environment and we should
leverage on that by providing mechanisms that will
energise it.</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Indeed the PRT does that. <br>
<br>
The problem is that if the ICANN internal
multistakeholder community says A, the ICANN Board can
say Not A, and there is NOTHING we can do about it.
Thus there needs to be an external entity that the ICANN
stakeholder environment we have created can directly
affect without threat of capture by ICANN Corporate.<br>
<br>
That is the primary Capture Entity we need to concern
ourselves with: ICANN Corporate.<span><br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</div></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">Gregory S. Shatan </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">ï</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(192,80,77)">Abelman Frayne & Schwab</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">666 Third Avenue </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">ï</span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> New York, NY 10017-5621</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Direct</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12128859253" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-885-9253</a> <b>| </b></span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Main</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499022" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9022</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Fax</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499190" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9190</a> <b>|</b> </span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Cell </span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+19178166428" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">917-816-6428</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="mailto:gsshatan@lawabel.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">gsshatan@lawabel.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><font>ICANN-related: <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> </font></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="http://www.lawabel.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">www.lawabel.com</a></span></i></b></p></div></div></div></div>
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