<div dir="ltr">Responses inline below.<br><br>Greg<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">Gregory S. Shatan </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(192,80,77)">Abelman Frayne & Schwab</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)">666 Third Avenue </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(23,54,93)">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,54,93)"> New York, NY 10017-5621</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Direct</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12128859253" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-885-9253</a> <b>| </b></span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Main</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499022" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9022</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Fax</span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+12129499190" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">212-949-9190</a> <b>|</b> </span><b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy">Cell </span></b><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a value="+19178166428" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">917-816-6428</a></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="mailto:gsshatan@lawabel.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">gsshatan@lawabel.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><font>ICANN-related: <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> </font></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:navy"><a href="http://www.lawabel.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">www.lawabel.com</a></span></i></b></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div>On 11/12/2014 06:28, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I just want to add a few points to Milton's
response, since he (thankfully) said much of what I would have
said (and more besides).
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:12 PM,
Milton L Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14a3933061c5e187_14a36b09e36ccfb1__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.8pt"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Olivier MJ
Crepin-Leblond<br>
<br>
</span></p>
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<span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I
would say that this has already been
demonstrated in the making up of the ICG and the
current CWG, both of which include non ICANN
participants from the global multistakeholder
community.<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">MM:
Hello Olivier. Both the ICG and this CWG have
been empowered by an external entity – the NTIA.
It was the NTIA that kicked off the process by
signaling its willingness to let go. It was NTIA
that told ICANN to convene but not control the
process. It was the NTIA that set the parameters
and basic criteria a transition proposal had to
meet. It is the NTIA, and the US government more
broadly, that will ultimately determine whether
the proposals we develop will be implemented. To
look at these processes as outgrowths of
processes internal to ICANN is to be
fundamentally out of touch with what is going on
here. As Jordan Carter pointed out in a message
a few minutes ago, given the concessions we had
to wring out of ICANN to make these processes as
independent as they are, it is evident that
these examples you hold up would have been very
different had they been internal to ICANN.</span></p>
</div>
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<div>GSS: The ICG is definitely not "internal-to-ICANN."
Here is #3 of the ICG's FAQs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Is
the </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition
Coordination Group" style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;font-weight:inherit;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51)">part
of</span><span style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><abbr title="Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and
Numbers" style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;font-weight:inherit;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICANN</abbr><span style="font-family:Lato,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1.31rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51)">?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">No.
The</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">is
an independent coordination group that has been
established as a result of a broad community
consultation and in response to the</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="US National Telecommunications and Information
Agency" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">NTIA</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">'s
announcement. The</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">is
conducting its work in an open, transparent and
independent manner. The</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">will
be providing its report to the community broadly.
Moreover, the</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">has
issued a</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><a href="https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2014-09-09-en" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,136,204);text-decoration:none;background:transparent" target="_blank">Request
for Proposal (RFP) to select a suitable neutral and
independent contractor to perform its secretariat
function</a><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">.
The role of the secretariat is strictly limited to the
functions that support the</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">,
and will report exclusively to the</span><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif"> </span><abbr title="IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination Group" style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-weight:inherit;direction:ltr;border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:dotted">ICG</abbr><span style="font-size:1rem;line-height:1.4rem;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif">,
its Chair or Vice-Chair(s).</span></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">S</span>imilarly,
I would point out that a totally independent MRT
that does not make use of ICANN's existing
structures as a convenor would be missing a
coordinated Governmental involvement. Indeed,
only ICANN has the ability to make use of its
members to relate back to the GAC and for the
GAC to express points. A totally independent MRT
would have individual governments speaking. Of
course, individual governments were able to
speak outside of ICANN at, say ITU meetings or
at NetMundial - but they were not restricted to
a handful of seats for the whole world.<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">MM:
The MRT _<i>will</i>_ make use of ICANN’s
institutionalized representational structures.
No one who has thought seriously about the
composition of the MRT has proposed anything
different from that. The GNSO SGs will be
putting people on to the MRT, so will the ccNSO,
so will the GAC, so will SSAC, so will ALAC. So
will entities outside of ICANN. But it will be
independent of ICANN legally, which as Greg
explained is essential.</span></p>
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<div>GSS: As stated above, the ICG is not part of ICANN, yet
it makes use of ICANN's structures (including the GAC), so
your statement doesn't hold water. The MRT can be set up
in a similar fashion. </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">MM:
As a sideline, I am a bit disturbed by the
special emphasis you are placing on governmental
involvement. Outside of their jurisdiction,
Governments’ only claim to involvement in ICANN
is as one of many voices in the policy
development process. I do hope you, and all ALAC
members, understand that the IANA functions
contractor is not a policy making institution,
nor is it supposed to be a vehicle for
circumventing or vetoing policy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">MM:
When it comes to the IANA functions, we do not
need governments “speaking,” collectively or
individually, about implementation. We need them
in their role as ccTLD administrators, in which
case they are just another IANA customer.
Insofar as they are indirectly affected by the
IANA functions, they are just another internet
user stakeholder group – no different from or
more important than noncommercial organizations
or business users. There is no legitimate reason
to afford governments a special collective voice
in the MRT. Even in the terms of the Tunis
Agenda, a document written by and for
governments, IANA qualifies as “day to day
technical and operational matters” and thus as
something to be left to the private sector.</span></p>
</div>
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<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<br></span>
OCL: The NTIA announcement of 14 March 2014 mentions the "intent to
transition key Internet domain name functions to the global
multistakeholder community". There is no mention of the intent to
transition the functions to only the IANA's direct customers.<span class=""><br></span></div></blockquote><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I'm not sure what you ar responding to here. Neither Milton nor I nor the CWG proposal has stated an intent to transition only to IANA's direct customers.</span> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
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<span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">At
this stage, I could use exactly the same wording
about the current CWG first draft, replacing
"other than to be 'internal-to-ICANN" with
"other than to be separable from ICANN".</p>
</span></div>
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<div>GSS: This is a false equivalency. You are comparing a
five-line three-sentence paragraph -- about which nothing
is known other than those few words -- with an entire
section in the proposal which has been worked out and
debated and amplified and clarified through hours of
meetings and phone calls and hundreds of emails. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
OCL: my point is that in my opinion the challenges in working out
the details of the CWG's first draft and making them implementable
are equally as complex as developing a solution that involves
accountability mechanisms. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I disagree. In any event, we are considerably further along in working out the details of the CWG proposal than we (or the CCWG-Accountability, since you seem to think accountability mechanisms are not our job) are on a solution that relies on creating or reconstructing internal-to-ICANN accountability mechanisms.</span><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Another CCWG is specifically tasked with
this. </div></blockquote><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I disagree with this as well. Accountability mechanisms for performance or lack of performance of the IANA Functions are our task, not the CCWG-Accountability. This is clear from the Charters, as I demonstrated earlier as well. Following your logic, we can create something that is utterly dependent on the CCWG-Accountability to work out all of the accountability mechanisms needed to make our proposal workable, and that is utterly unworkable without the CCWG's <i>deus ex machina </i>descending onto the stage and taming ICANN into an amiable creature. I think that would be a complete abrogation of our duties.</span><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">I am repeatedly surprised that there is more faith in the
CWG's proposal which introduces a multitude of unknown unknowns as
far as accountability is concerned, than in a process that involves
a strengthening of ICANN's accountability. </div></blockquote><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I would not classify the solutions in the CWG proposal as "unknown unknowns"; at worst, they are known unknowns -- we know what the blanks are, we just need to finish filling them in. The major framework of the CWG proposal is a "known known" using existing building blocks like contracts and multistakeholder groups. It's really not very exotic. Indeed, when our proposal first came out, we were accused of being "unimaginative" and "status-quoist" in the blogosphere and twitterverse.</span> <br></div><div><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Is there really so much
distrust about ICANN? </div></blockquote><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I think others have answered this in this and other threads. I will take a different tack. Whether there is a great deal of distrust in ICANN today or not, we need to look down the line and think about worst case scenarios and risk mitigation. Using a valid, enforceable contract and an independent third party provides a very traditional way of binding a corporation, and isolates the accountability mechanisms from the target of those mechanisms. By contrast, the ALAC concept puts the accountability mechanism inside the target. If you had a wild animal in a cage, would you put the tranquilizer gun inside the cage, or outside of it?</span><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Also - please do not equate this paragraph to
a defense of ICANN on my part. I have serious concerns about ICANN's
accountability. I think a number of things need to be fixed. But
having seen how new entities get set-up with all of the best
intentions in the world and then go rogue after a few years, I would
be happier with a solution that fixes an animal that we already know
inside out.<br></div></blockquote><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">GS: I am also hopeful of a broad solution to enhancing ICANN's accountability that fixes the animal, and I look forward to the CCWG's work on that score. But it is not our job to fix all of ICANN. We have a different task and we need to put forward a proposal that meets the task.<br><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">As for the rogue entity (or entities) started with the best of intentions that you have seen: can you give us some more concrete detail and examples of these? I am sure that we could learn something from these past problems so that we can avoid their mistakes and weaknesses. It would be good to have some real examples to deal with.</span><br><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Best regards, <br><br>Greg</span><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<br>
Warmest regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
</div>
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