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Thanks Greg,<br>
<br>
Perhaps my desire for brevity left a bit too much open for
interpretation. So, hopefully I can clarify:<br>
<br>
The Jones Day document is only one input of many. In my mind it
should not be construed as definitive or final and we should
absolutely continue to seek out and assess our own legal advice (as
we are doing). I am very much looking forward to the fruits of
those labours.<br>
I was merely sharing the thoughts that came to me as I read it, with
the intent as you suggest to initiate some conversation. I also
agree that we are a long way away from making the sort of
determinations that I think are raised by that document. <br>
<br>
In short, I'm trying to discuss and ponder the content,without
trying to elevate its source above any other input we might have.<br>
<br>
If the general sense is that the Jones Day advice isn't helpful, or
even possibly distracting or detractive from our process, then lets
acknowledge it as such and carry on.<br>
<br>
Perhaps it would have been more constructive if I had phrased those
thoughts as questions, rather than statements. I think what you're
saying is lets get to those questions when we're farther down the
road and have our own advice.<br>
<br>
<br>
Graeme<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2015-02-09 11:29 AM, Greg Shatan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUS9MAfwLFD_hBBfPZKPp192tzebqU+g8DKiDyZZoFv9rQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Graeme,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>May I gently suggest that you are treating this as a
definitive legal opinion by stating the two outcomes you think
it suggests. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I think the outcome it suggests is that we need
independent legal counseling. I use t he word "counseling" and
not "advice" on purpose. A good counselor solves a client's
problems and protects the client from risk. A document like
the one in question is at best a jumping off point for such
counseling, which is by definition interactive and iterative
in nature.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, it's entirely possible that, even after robust
attempts at problem-solving, that the proposal that best meets
the needs of the global multistakeholder community could
involve an external-to-ICANN option or could only be feasible
under the laws of a different jurisdiction.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But we are far, far away from this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll admit that, in my private practice, there are times I
feel that I have to walk clients through fairly negative steps
in terms of the legal environment, risks and worst-case
scenarios. But then the real work starts (I might even say
"the fun begins" but that sounds kind of pathetically wonky),
starting with "But this is what we can do..." and tell them
how we will meet their needs. Of course, there are times when
you need to tell clients "No," but most of the time, it should
be "No, but..." It's the really rare case where you say "No.
Just No." (or how do you look in an orange jumpsuit...). Even
in those cases, you try to find the client a reasonable
solution to as many of their key points as possible.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, rather than looking at this as a conversation stopper,
it will be more fruitful to view it as a conversation starter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greg<br>
<br>
On Monday, February 9, 2015, Graeme Bunton <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gbunton@tucows.com"
target="_blank">gbunton@tucows.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I read it with some
interest, and as was pointed out by Milton and others in
the Accountability WG, it is legal that advocates from and
for a particular perspective. Which is of course fine, so
long as we don't treat this as definitive legal opinion
for our purposes.<br>
<br>
To me, it seems to suggest either of two outcomes:<br>
- The re-domiciling of ICANN to a jurisdiction that would
allow the community to assert itself upon the board<br>
- Some version of the external to ICANN option we've been
discussing<br>
<br>
Graeme<br>
<br>
<div>On 2015-02-09 1:33 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">People
who read this should keep in mind that Jones Day
is ICANN’s lawyer and as such has an interest in,
if not an obligation to, interpret or represent
the law in ways that serve the interests of its
client.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="14b6c273cf791f9c_14b6bc1fd6ac1d02__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true">cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Gannon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 8, 2015 5:11
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> RFP3<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CWG-RFP3] CCWG California
Law Response</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB">I believe that the CWG
should be aware of the response from
Jones Day to the CCWG’s questions of
California law noted below while we are
considering options and they will feed
into the acceptability of both models
under discussion:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB">I have copied an excerpt
extracted and notes on the domainmondo
article below: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.domainmondo.com/2015/02/icann-lawyers-nix-icann-accountability.html"
target="_blank">http://www.domainmondo.com/2015/02/icann-lawyers-nix-icann-accountability.html</a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB">>>Initial Responses
to the Community Working Group’s
California Law Questions, 7 February
2015,from Jones Day (ICANN's lawyers) to
questions submitted by the Cross
Community Working Group (CCWG)....
(excerpts below, full responses <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none">here</span></a>)--<br>
<br>
Jones Day: “…. It is important to note
that, even in the context
of members and delegates, California law
provides that the activities and affairs
of ICANN still must be conducted and all
corporate powers must be exercised by or
under the direction of the Board.
Accordingly, members and
delegates cannot force the Board to take
a certain action or overturn a Board
decision. The rights of members and
delegates under California law
are limited and are more closely
associated with approval rights over
specified actions, rather than the right
to second guess or supersede Board
action or inaction. For example, members
would only be entitled to approve the
Board’s budget and would not be able to
propose or approve a separate budget. As
with any new structure, adding “members”
or “delegates” raises a considerable
number of governance issues, including
the mechanisms to hold these new members
or delegates accountable, how these
members/delegates would be selected (and
how could they be changed), what
specified matters would the
members/delegates be entitled to
approve, what would be the applicable
voting threshold for each specified
matter, how often would member/delegate
meetings be held and how much notice
would be required for those meetings,
and how would the creation of
members/delegates affect the existing
Board selection structure. Further, any
new structure must be evaluated against
the question of whether the new
structure actually solves the underlying
problem or meets the underlying goal. In
some respects, the introduction of
“members” or “delegates,” while
initially appealing, may not solve the
underlying problems and could simply
result in moving the “problems” to
another body of individuals where
similar accountability concerns would
persist (i.e., who watches the watchers)
….<br>
<br>
“4. In the case of inaction by the Board
on an issue developed through community
consensus, is it possible to have a
mechanism that will empower the
community to require the Board to take
action? <br>
<br>
“No. California law does not provide for
a mechanism that would empower the
community, regardless of whether ICANN
has members or not, to force the Board
to take action on a community
proposal. The activities and affairs of
ICANN must be managed and all corporate
powers must be exercised under the
ultimate direction of the Board….” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">James
Gannon</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Director</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cyber
Invasion Ltd</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dun
Laoghaire, County Dublin, Ireland</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B353%20%281%29663-8787"
value="+35316638787" target="_blank">+353
(1)663-8787</a></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B353%20%2886%29175-3581"
value="+353861753581"
target="_blank">+353 (86)175-3581</a></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email<a
moz-do-not-send="true">:james<span
lang="EN-IE">@cyberinvasion.net</span></a></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">GPG:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://keybase.io/jayg"
target="_blank">https://keybase.io/jayg</a></span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-IE"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
_________________________
Graeme Bunton
Manager, Management Information Systems
Manager, Public Policy
Tucows Inc.
PH: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:416%20535%200123%20ext%201634" value="+14165350123" target="_blank">416 535 0123 ext 1634</a></pre>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
_________________________
Graeme Bunton
Manager, Management Information Systems
Manager, Public Policy
Tucows Inc.
PH: 416 535 0123 ext 1634</pre>
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