<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Milton,<div><br></div><div>You do yourself a disservice by pulling out the Board member card. As you know full well I am more than capable of dividing my responsibilities/opinions as a Board member from those as CEO of auDA from those of an individual. I appreciate that as an academic you have no experience of doing this but I can assure you it is a skill one learns very quickly in the corporate world. </div><div><br></div><div>Please let us try to keep this important debate out of the gutter. Thanks.<br><div>
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<p class="p2">Cheers,</p>
<p class="p3"><br></p>
<p class="p2">Chris Disspain<span class="s1"> </span><span class="s2">|</span><span class="s1"> </span>Chief Executive Officer</p>
<p class="p2">.au Domain Administration Ltd</p>
<p class="p2">T: <span class="s3">+61 3 8341 4111</span><span class="s1"> </span><span class="s2">|</span><span class="s1"> </span>F: <span class="s3">+61 3 8341 4112</span></p>
<p class="p4"><span class="s4">E:</span><span class="s1"> <a href="mailto:ceo@auda.org.au"><span class="s5">ceo@auda.org.au</span></a> </span><span class="s6">|</span><span class="s1"> </span><span class="s4">W:</span><span class="s7"> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/"><span class="s8">www.auda.org.au</span></a></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p class="p2">auDA – Australia’s Domain Name Administrator</p>
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<br><div><div>On 10 Feb 2015, at 11:10 , Milton L Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What Kieren says is true. Moreover, it is expected behavior for any corporation or institution. No organization willingly gives up power. I am here in Singapore and I could tick off about a dozen ways in which this common pattern is being played out at the present time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I guess the meaning of the fact that it is a board member in the lead challenging Kieren’s assertion is not lost on any of us.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></a></div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;"><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chris Disspain<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 9, 2015 11:12 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kieren McCarthy<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>; RFP3<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [CWG-Stewardship] [CWG-RFP3] CCWG California Law Response<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Kieren,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">With all due respect;<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Another fact from this: ICANN corporate is going to fight all proposed changes that see it lose any kind of power. And the Board will likely feel obliged to follow the legal advice of its lawyers over a third party.<o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">…that is not a fact. It is at best speculation. It is possibly journalistic licence. It is, at its worst, intentionally mischievous and misleading. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(148, 67, 251);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(148, 67, 251);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(148, 67, 251);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">On 10 Feb 2015, at 02:27 , Kieren McCarthy <<a href="mailto:kierenmccarthy@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">kierenmccarthy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">I'm a little surprised that you are all surprised by the contents of ICANN's lawyers' memo.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">This has been the position of Jones Day for years and it has been used repeatedly to undercut community recommendations for better accountability.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">The big difference this time around is that we have it in black and white, and publicly, before the final recommendations have been made. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">In the past, the legal advice has typically only made it into the Board's hands after the recommendations have been provided. They have then been dropped.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Another fact from this: ICANN corporate is going to fight all proposed changes that see it lose any kind of power. And the Board will likely feel obliged to follow the legal advice of its lawyers over a third party.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">So the question becomes: how do you force ICANN Corporate to shift its position *before* the process is closed off? <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Because if you leave that detail until after (call it 'implementation'), it will never happen.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Kieren<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Kieren<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>-<br>[sent through phone]<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></p><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Maarten Simon <<a href="mailto:maarten.simon@sidn.nl" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">maarten.simon@sidn.nl</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Thank you Greg for this response. I indeed hope that Californian law will proof to be more flexible than suggested by the advice because I am not looking forward to a discussion on all possible jurisdictions worldwide that could provide for what we need. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Maarten<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday 9 February 2015 11:29<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Graeme Bunton <<a href="mailto:gbunton@tucows.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gbunton@tucows.com</a>><br><b>Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:cwg-rfp3@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-rfp3@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cwg-rfp3@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-rfp3@icann.org</a>><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [CWG-Stewardship] CCWG California Law Response<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Graeme,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">May I gently suggest that you are treating this as a definitive legal opinion by stating the two outcomes you think it suggests. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> I think the outcome it suggests is that we need independent legal counseling. I use t he word "counseling" and not "advice" on purpose. A good counselor solves a client's problems and protects the client from risk. A document like the one in question is at best a jumping off point for such counseling, which is by definition interactive and iterative in nature.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">That said, it's entirely possible that, even after robust attempts at problem-solving, that the proposal that best meets the needs of the global multistakeholder community could involve an external-to-ICANN option or could only be feasible under the laws of a different jurisdiction.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">But we are far, far away from this.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">I'll admit that, in my private practice, there are times I feel that I have to walk clients through fairly negative steps in terms of the legal environment, risks and worst-case scenarios. But then the real work starts (I might even say "the fun begins" but that sounds kind of pathetically wonky), starting with "But this is what we can do..." and tell them how we will meet their needs. Of course, there are times when you need to tell clients "No," but most of the time, it should be "No, but..." It's the really rare case where you say "No. Just No." (or how do you look in an orange jumpsuit...). Even in those cases, you try to find the client a reasonable solution to as many of their key points as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">So, rather than looking at this as a conversation stopper, it will be more fruitful to view it as a conversation starter.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Greg<br><br>On Monday, February 9, 2015, Graeme Bunton <<a href="mailto:gbunton@tucows.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gbunton@tucows.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">I read it with some interest, and as was pointed out by Milton and others in the Accountability WG, it is legal that advocates from and for a particular perspective. Which is of course fine, so long as we don't treat this as definitive legal opinion for our purposes.<br><br>To me, it seems to suggest either of two outcomes:<br>- The re-domiciling of ICANN to a jurisdiction that would allow the community to assert itself upon the board<br>- Some version of the external to ICANN option we've been discussing<br><br>Graeme<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">On 2015-02-09 1:33 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">People who read this should keep in mind that Jones Day is ICANN’s lawyer and as such has an interest in, if not an obligation to, interpret or represent the law in ways that serve the interests of its client.</span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a name="14b6c273cf791f9c_14b6bc1fd6ac1d02__MailE"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></a><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;"><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="mailto:cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:cwg-rfp3-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>James Gannon<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, February 8, 2015 5:11 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RFP3<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[CWG-RFP3] CCWG California Law Response</span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I believe that the CWG should be aware of the response from Jones Day to the CCWG’s questions of California law noted below while we are considering options and they will feed into the acceptability of both models under discussion:</span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf</a></span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have copied an excerpt extracted and notes on the domainmondo article below:<a href="http://www.domainmondo.com/2015/02/icann-lawyers-nix-icann-accountability.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.domainmondo.com/2015/02/icann-lawyers-nix-icann-accountability.html</a></span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">>>Initial Responses to the Community Working Group’s California Law Questions, 7 February 2015,from Jones Day (ICANN's lawyers) to questions submitted by the Cross Community Working Group (CCWG).... (excerpts below, full responses <a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/attachments/20150208/ed62a5b3/AccountabilityQuestionsforCCWG-fromJonesDay-0001.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-decoration: none;">here</span></a>)--<br><br>Jones Day: “…. It is important to note that, even in the context of members and delegates, California law provides that the activities and affairs of ICANN still must be conducted and all corporate powers must be exercised by or under the direction of the Board. Accordingly, members and delegates cannot force the Board to take a certain action or overturn a Board decision. The rights of members and delegates under California law are limited and are more closely associated with approval rights over specified actions, rather than the right to second guess or supersede Board action or inaction. For example, members would only be entitled to approve the Board’s budget and would not be able to propose or approve a separate budget. As with any new structure, adding “members” or “delegates” raises a considerable number of governance issues, including the mechanisms to hold these new members or delegates accountable, how these members/delegates would be selected (and how could they be changed), what specified matters would the members/delegates be entitled to approve, what would be the applicable voting threshold for each specified matter, how often would member/delegate meetings be held and how much notice would be required for those meetings, and how would the creation of members/delegates affect the existing Board selection structure. Further, any new structure must be evaluated against the question of whether the new structure actually solves the underlying problem or meets the underlying goal. In some respects, the introduction of “members” or “delegates,” while initially appealing, may not solve the underlying problems and could simply result in moving the “problems” to another body of individuals where similar accountability concerns would persist (i.e., who watches the watchers) ….<br><br>“4. In the case of inaction by the Board on an issue developed through community consensus, is it possible to have a mechanism that will empower the community to require the Board to take action? <br><br>“No. California law does not provide for a mechanism that would empower the community, regardless of whether ICANN has members or not, to force the Board to take action on a community proposal. The activities and affairs of ICANN must be managed and all corporate powers must be exercised under the ultimate direction of the Board….” </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">James Gannon</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Director</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cyber Invasion Ltd</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dun Laoghaire, County Dublin, Ireland</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Office:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="tel:%2B353%20%281%29663-8787" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">+353 (1)663-8787</a></span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cell:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="tel:%2B353%20%2886%29175-3581" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">+353 (86)175-3581</a></span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Email:<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">james</a></span></b><b><span lang="EN-IE" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">@cyberinvasion.net</a></span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">GPG:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://keybase.io/jayg" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://keybase.io/jayg</a></span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">CWG-Stewardship mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"> </span></div><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">_________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Graeme Bunton<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Manager, Management Information Systems<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Manager, Public Policy<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Tucows Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">PH: <a href="tel:416%20535%200123%20ext%201634" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">416 535 0123 ext 1634</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>_______________________________________________<br>CWG-Stewardship mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a></span></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></span></body></html>