<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"><base href="x-msg://7974/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Feb 22, 2015, at 2:54 PM, "Jonathan Robinson" <<a href="mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info">jrobinson@afilias.info</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Suzanne,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks for this.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The points you make below are interesting to me because they happen to align with my current understanding on the issue (of IANA accountability AOT ICANN accountability).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Moreover, it seems to me that dealing with an intransigent IANA here (i.e. a contractor that does </span>not do things they *are* supposed to do, or does things they are *not* supposed to do<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">) is the point where an Independent Appeals Process may be relevant. And this (the conditions for when an IAP may be relevant) represents to me a good example of the type of focused issue of what I had envisaged a design team might be able to work on.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>From experience of outsourcing various services, it seems to me that it's important to understand where those risks lie-- an incompetent contractor, not following orders it's been given; or a policy body that's behaving incompetently or improperly by giving inappropriate direction for implementation. (An imperfect but easy analogy from the commercial world is in outsourcing certain administrative services, then discovering costs aren't going down and management overhead is going up because the Accounting department doesn't know how to generate proper direction for its outsourced A/R staff any more than it did for its employee A/R staff.) </div><div><br></div><div>Much of the discussion we've been having may be placing some of the accountability in the wrong place, by assuming that firing the policy implementation body would fix issues that are really the result of inappropriate directions from the policy-making body.</div><div><br></div><div>In any case I agree it's a reasonable discussion to have in the context of what we're really trying to accomplish in the CWG, and would benefit from some focus.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Suzanne</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; "> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Suzanne Woolf [mailto:suzworldwide@<a href="http://gmail.com">gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>22 February 2015 18:48<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Andrew Sullivan<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Update on the Integrated model.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Feb 22, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Andrew Sullivan <<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">The IANA function is really extremely small. It's a critical but<br>basically boring book-keeping function. As near as I can tell, there<br>have been practically no cases where there was any accusation that<br>IANA did not do exactly what it was supposed to do. There were<br>historically some complaints that IANA didn't act expeditiously, and<br>there were _lots_ of historic complaints that an IANA function was<br>being used by ICANN to try to impose ICANN policies. The former is an<br>SLA issue; the latter is actually a policy matter with enforcement<br>attempts in the policy side of the organization, and is not actually<br>an issue with IANA at all. So in my opinion, accountability _for<br>IANA_ would help with the SLA stuff (and also with the case that IANA<br>"goes rogue") but would not help with the policy issues.<br><br>Does that match the accountability concerns others have?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Possibly as a help in thinking about this question….<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">There's a question here of what people are being held accountable *for*.<br><span style="color: rgb(15, 97, 200); "><br></span>In addition to separability as a final backstop, the other feature of the model the IETF has, and the RIRs are seeking, is that their contractor for the IANA functions that affect them is held accountable for two things: <br><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>1. Doing what they're told, in a timely and correct fashion<br><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>2. Not doing anything else<br><span style="color: rgb(15, 97, 200); "><br></span>If the contractor doesn't do things they *are* supposed to do, or does things they are *not* supposed to do, they're accountable for their poor performance-- but the directions come from the policy body, as implementation of its policies, and the contractor's accountability is to the policy body. In ICANN's case, this is where the Board's accountability touches IANA as an operational function, and is separate from any role of the Board or accountability of the Board regarding ICANN as a policy body.<br><span style="color: rgb(15, 97, 200); "><br></span>The contractor is not accountable for following improper directions from the policy body, as long as the agreed-upon processes between the policy body and the contractor are followed. It doesn't matter whether those directions are improper because process wasn't followed internally to the policy body, or because properly-executed policy nonetheless leads to unacceptable outcomes. In both of those cases, there's no wrongdoing by the contractor, and the only accountability that matters is that of the policy body to its users. <br><span style="color: rgb(15, 97, 200); "><br></span>In the IETF model, accountability for making bad decisions about what to tell IANA to do is maintained in a number of ways, but they're outside of the IANA SLAs and I don't see any of them changing in the event that a new contractor is selected for the protocol parameters registries. <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Bluntly, isn't the major accountability concern for root zone management that ICANN will give inappropriate directions to IANA staff in the course of implementing policy? If so, in the case we're concerned about, what's broken is the policy body. Changing the status of IANA staff from employees to outside contractors, or changing contractors, wouldn't help at all; the problem is internal to the policy body, and any IANA contractor (internal or external) would be obligated just the same to follow its directions. The place to prevent or stop or fix the results of bad directions to IANA is in ICANN, not IANA.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I think this argues that the group needs to refine the definition of what kind of accountability belongs in the IANA transition discussion. It also argues for some care in applying the IETF/RIRs' model for names, or expecting them to participate in a model that may fit names better than protocol parameters or addresses.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Suzanne<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>