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<div>It would very helpful once and for all for someone to answer this question: will ICANN lawyers be involved in the ongoing process of getting advice except for having visibility to the list? I have been assuming not.</div>
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<div>Chuck</div>
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<div style="font-size:9px; color:#575757">Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
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-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Kieren McCarthy <kieren@kierenmccarthy.com> <br>
Date:03/10/2015 2:23 PM (GMT-05:00) <br>
To: Maarten Simon <maarten.simon@sidn.nl> <br>
Cc: cwg-stewardship@icann.org <br>
Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Client Committee <br>
<br>
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<div dir="ltr">What is it with this trust, distrust and taking personal offense at perfectly reasonable questions?
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<div>The issue is real quite simple: it is a very important part of the process and it is deviating from the process norms. </div>
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<div>The only people that have argued for the closed committee continuing its role going forward are the people on the closed committee. Rather than get offended, why not make the case?</div>
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<div>The issue about ICANN's lawyers being allowed into conversations and put on mailing lists when others are refused access is transparently odd. </div>
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<div>It would be odd at any point in the IANA transition but it is particularly odd when you consider what we are talking about here: seeking independent legal advice outside of ICANN.</div>
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<div>So far the reaction from the committee members has only increased concerns:</div>
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<div>* Jonathan responded by discounting people's concerns and saying he thinks it's fine for ICANN's lawyers to be deeply involved in the process. He appeared to ignore questions about who decided this closed committee not only needs to continue to be in place
but should act at the intermediary between the legal team and the working group. </div>
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<div>* Greg takes personal offense and claims that people are maligning him when, objectively, they're not. But he doesn't address the key issue of why it's appropriate to have ICANN's lawyers on a group whose entire purpose is to get independent legal advice. </div>
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<div>* Maarten complains that the committee has been working hard and again takes personal offense. But again without answering people's concerns.</div>
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<div>The key issue is this: why are ICANN's lawyers included *at all*?</div>
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<div>Everyone that has stated a view outside the committee has made it plain that they don't think it is appropriate for ICANN's lawyers, either internal or external, to be involved at this point.</div>
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<div>It's a pretty obvious argument: the entire process is supposed to be about developing an independent legal view. How can that be the case when there are more ICANN staff on the mailing list than committee members?</div>
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<div>So can we please stop this talk about trust, cut back on the getting offended, and have a proper discussion on the pertinent issue.</div>
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<div>Kieren</div>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Maarten Simon <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:maarten.simon@sidn.nl" target="_blank">maarten.simon@sidn.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>All,</div>
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<div>I have not been very active on this list but try to follow it the best I can and try to help this process where I think I it can be useful. As some may be aware, I am one of the four members on the client committee and have worked with Lise, Jonathan and
Greg for some weeks now. It took us some time, but we have successfully retained a firm that I am sure is fully equipped to help us in our further work. We have worked with ICANN legal as ICANN has to be the formal client and has to pay the bill. They have
had no say in which firm we choose and I have not noticed any attempt to influence our choice. They have further accepted the highly unusual clauses in the retention letter that gives us the exclusive power to direct the firm in its work. </div>
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<div>What strikes me on this list, is that this result is not celebrated but merely met with criticism and an enormous amount of distrust towards ICANN in the first place but also towards the (members of the) client committee. Yes, we have different opinions
and, yes, we need debate and everyone must have his of her say, but if we want to be able to reach a sort of shared understanding in the end (and a good result), we need in my opinion, have some basis of trust in each other. </div>
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<div>We as a team have worked hard to get where we are so that we can set the next step, and I have to specifically commend Greg for all the work he has done. Let’s now all take this opportunity and start working with the firm and get the legal advise we are
waiting for. </div>
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<div>Best,</div>
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<div>Maarten</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Jonathan Robinson <<a href="mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info" target="_blank">jrobinson@afilias.info</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Organization: </span>Afilias<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span>Jonathan Robinson <<a href="mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info" target="_blank">jrobinson@afilias.info</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday 10 March 2015 13:15<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>'James Gannon' <<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>>, 'Robin Gross' <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>>
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<div class="h5"><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Client Committee<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">A couple of points to add / re-iterate for complete clarity:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style="font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">The client committee remains as was i.e. the four members and has not had ICANN legal added to it<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style="font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; font-size:7pt; line-height:normal; font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">The mailing list was set up to facilitate the work of the client committee – primarily communication between the CC & Sidley - but to do so in an open and
transparent method. <br>
Therefore “</span><a href="mailto:cwg-client@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(59,115,175); background-color:white; text-decoration:none">cwg-client@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">”
is visible to all. This is clearly extremely unusual in client / lawyer relationship but done so for (I hope) obvious reasons.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">The working methods of the client committee are work in progress and linked to from the URL below:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Client+Committee" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Client+Committee</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please feel free to assist in refining these by proposing any updates to the working methods document.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Overall, the intention is that any discussions, meetings etc that take place between the client committee and Sidley and are visible and clear to all (including
ICANN Legal / Kevin), primarily via “</span><a href="mailto:cwg-client@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(59,115,175); background-color:white; text-decoration:none">cwg-client@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I understand the principle highlighted by Robin below but wonder if, given that the transparency of the “</span><a href="mailto:cwg-client@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(59,115,175); background-color:white; text-decoration:none">cwg-client@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">”
list, it is advantageous in some way to retain ICANN Legal’s permission to post to the list e.g. for items of clarification, additional information etc? We have no sense of ICANN Legal’s intention to post to the list and could simply check with them if they
are interested to retain that right (which has been given to them at the set-up of the mailing list without significant debate or discussion). Personally, my inclination is to leave it as is for the moment but I haven’t had the opportunity to discuss it with
Lise nor fully absorb the feedback / concerns from the CWG.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jonathan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> James Gannon [<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank">mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> 10 March 2015 00:40<br>
<b>To:</b> Robin Gross<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Client Committee<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Agreed thats a fair point. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 10 Mar 2015, at 00:33, Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well, the ICANN website says that 3 ICANN attorneys are also included on the CWG Client Committee mailing list (Samantha, John J, Kevin from Jones Day) and meetings. And ICANN's lawyers are also part of the conversations with the CWG Client
Cmte, so it seems like they are participants of the Client Cmte, even if not labeled as such.
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Since the phase of retaining the law firm and needing ICANN's help identifying conflicts is over, ICANN's lawyers should no longer be participants on the CWG Client Committee mailing list, meetings, discussions, etc., if the client committee
can be said to be independent of the conflict.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Robin<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 9, 2015, at 5:06 PM, Gomes, Chuck wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Robin,</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">My understanding is that there are only 4 members of the client committee: Greg, Maartin, Lise and Jonathan. I have seen nothing that expanded
the membership. The fact that others have been involved with the client committee in finalizing the arrangements with Sidley is in my understanding simply a result of the fact that ICANN is funding the effort and has to be a legal party to the agreement,
which you probably understand better than me.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chuck</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a><span> </span>[<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Robin Gross<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Monday, March 09, 2015 8:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info" target="_blank">jrobinson@afilias.info</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Client Committee</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks, Jonathan. I'm concerned about inclusion of more ICANN representatives than community representatives on the CWG Client Committee:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Client+Committee" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Client+Committee</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When did CWG decide it would allow 5 ICANN representatives, including 3 of ICANN's attorneys on the CWG's Client Committee? Secretarial support work is fine, but actual participation is another thing entirely.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We are supposed to obtain truly independent legal advice. So why are we re-introducing the conflict we are trying to avoid into the Client Committee?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I suggest a CWG discussion about the appropriateness of ICANN's attorneys remaining on the Client Committee going forward. Now that outside counsel has been retained, any need for their involvement to help identify possible
conflicts has been removed.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Robin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><image001.png><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Mar 8, 2015, at 3:48 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">All,</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We are following up on the very good news that the Client Committee has successfully worked with ICANN staff to secure the retention of Sidley Austin. First, particular thanks
are due to Greg Shatan for the extraordinary effort he has put in to assist the committee with all aspects of its work.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since the CWG initially discussed and agreed the set-up and composition of the Client Committee, there has been some e-mail discussion regarding the functioning of the Committee.
As you know, the composition comprises the two co-chairs and two legally qualified individuals (Greg Shatan<span> </span><span style="background:white">and<span> </span></span>Maarten Simon) which is a manageable size and contains appropriately qualified members.
The Committee was set up to provide an effective interface between the CWG and the firm providing the CWG with appropriate advice on the relevant legal issues. However, prior to that, the first task of the Committee was to secure the services of a suitably
qualified firm and that job is now complete. Therefore, now seems to be a good time to seek input on the working of the Client Committee.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The Client Committee remains required in order to provide a coherent interface between the CWG & the retained law firm because it is not practical or cost-effective for a group
the size of the CWG to continuously interact with the retained law firm at all times. However, in order for the CWG (and anyone relying on the work of the CWG) to have confidence in the work of the Client Committee, the CWG needs to fully trust that the Client
Committee will accurately and effectively transmit and represent the issues and challenges facing the CWG. And moreover, that there will be opportunities for the CWG to interact directly with the law firm in order to enhance that confidence and clarify issues
where relevant. As per the announcement of the selection of Sidley, representatives of the firm will be at the CWG meeting on Tuesday to both listen and interact.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Therefore, what (if any) changes to the working methods of the Client Committee should be made so that the CWG can be as confident as possible in the capabilities and work of
the Client Committee as this crucial aspect of the CWG’s work commences in earnest?</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank-you,</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Jonathan & Lise</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
CWG-Stewardship mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
CWG-Stewardship mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
CWG-Stewardship mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a><br>
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