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Hi<br>
<br>
Paul said:<br>
<br>
<i>I agree the external contract co does not work (based on Sidley's
advise </i><i>given
in Istanbul), but we need to have proper legal advise as how best
to have a
(limited and defined scope) affiliated company, within the ICANN
Community,
responsible for Stewardship.</i><br>
<br>
I don't see this as going back to an external model or changing
course. I see this as more of a variation on the affiliate model
which is one of the options being explored. <br>
<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/10/2015 11:09 PM, Gomes, Chuck
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Milton,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
was not suggesting that we should seek legal advice on this;
that would be changing course. What I was trying to say is
that we shouldn’t change course until such time that we get
information that invalidates our current direction such as
new legal advice as they continue to do what we asked them
to do, i.e., further explore the two options currently on
the table.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Milton L Mueller [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mailto:mueller@syr.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 10, 2015 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gomes, Chuck; Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CWG-Stewardship] Remember to send
questions and comments to legal advice from Sidley
Austin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chuck,
et al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
view is that the legal separation model was intended to be a
middle ground between the fully external options advocated
now by Paul and an internal option that was clearly
unacceptable to nearly half of the CWG. Thus, I would agree
with you that we should not change course now until we
discover whether that middle ground can be acceptable to
most parties. It might be helpful in this regard for Paul to
explain why he prefers an external entity to legal
separation with an independent PTI board.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But
this is not an issue that can be resolved through “legal
advice,” as it is not a legal issue. So in that respect, you
are not responding appropriately to Greg’s message, as he
said that this was not an issue that could be referred to
the lawyers. It has to do with whether Paul Kane’s idea has
sufficient support (“traction”) to put some kind of an
external entity back on the table.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
legal advisors are here only to tell us what is legally
possible (and impossible). They are not here to tell us what
is desirable.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org">mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gomes, Chuck<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 10, 2015 2:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Shatan; Andrew Sullivan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Remember to send
questions and comments to legal advice from Sidley
Austin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Unless
we get legal advice that justifies a possible course
correction, I don’t think we should changes courses at
this time. Let’s at least pursue the current course long
enough to make a better judgment about needing to change
directions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
[</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 10, 2015 2:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Sullivan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Remember to send
questions and comments to legal advice from Sidley Austin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Rather
than referring this issue to the lawyers, I think the
CWG needs to consider whether there is enough traction
to (re)consider this model, which is essentially one
that was set aside in Istanbul in favor of an internal
model with legal or structural separation. Under the
internal model(s), the oversight and accountability
structures are internal to ICANN and its community.
At some level, I'm agnostic on the approach, so this
is not about what I prefer. Rather this is about the
course that the CWG is on, and whether there is
sufficient interest in the CWG to explore a
significant course deviation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">That
said, it may be that the advice we get is that
entities such as the CSC should be legally cognizable,
in addition to having the IANA Function in a legally
cognizable affiliate, as opposed to a committee
created by the Bylaws or chartered by SO/ACs. That is
more of a detail (though an important one).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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<p
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href="mailto:gsshatan@lawabel.com" target="_blank"><b><i><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:17 PM,
Andrew Sullivan <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com" target="_blank">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 05:07:07PM +0100, Paul M Kane -
CWG wrote:<br>
<br>
> We are designing a process for transitioning the
Stewardship of IANA<br>
> from NTIA - therefore we need to consider the
Stewardship role. To<br>
> suggest this is not to be considered now is absurd.<br>
[…]<br>
> (limited and defined scope) affiliated company,
within the ICANN Community,<br>
> responsible for Stewardship.<br>
<br>
I don't understand how the latter follows from the
former. It's true<br>
that in the absence of the NTIA's stewardship, that
stewardship moved<br>
somewhere else. It does not follow from that that one
needs a<br>
"company…responsible for Stewardship." It only follows
that the<br>
stewardship function, to the extent it functions, needs
to happen<br>
somewhere.<br>
<br>
The arguments for legal separation amount to arguments
that<br>
stewardship is going to be easiest to ensure when the
stewards and the<br>
thing to be stewarded are legally separated from one
another. The<br>
contractual terms between the stewards and the stewarded
prevent the<br>
latter from doing whatever it likes, it's true; but they
equally<br>
protect the latter from untoward interference by the
former, when the<br>
former might try to overreach ("Quis custodiet ipsos
custodes?").<br>
<br>
In other words, stewardship does not lie in a single
company, but in<br>
the relationship between two functions; and ultimately,
in the wider<br>
community observing all of these interactions. I don't
think anyone<br>
is suggesting we not consider stewardship. But I do
think it absurd<br>
to think that the right thing to do is try to re-create
an<br>
organization to fill the shoes currently occupied by
NTIA. If we're<br>
going to reproduce the dissatisfying structure we have,
why would we<br>
change it at all?<br>
<br>
<span class="im">Best regards,</span><br>
<br>
<span class="im">A</span><br>
<br>
<span class="im">--</span><br>
<span class="im">Andrew Sullivan</span><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com">ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
CWG-Stewardship mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
CWG-Stewardship mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org">CWG-Stewardship@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Matthew Shears
Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
+ 44 (0)771 247 2987</pre>
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