<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Chuck,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I agree with virtually everything you say. Just a few small points, regarding the IANA trademarks:</div><div class="gmail_default" style><ul style><li style><font face="verdana, sans-serif">I would not assume that bias (or, to use a less loaded phrase, the desire for a particular result) is less of an issue than on any other point. I'm not saying that it is; I'm just saying it should not be assumed.</font></li><li style><font face="verdana, sans-serif">I don't believe ICANN has specific in-house trademark expertise. Jones Day appears to handle their trademark portfolio.</font></li><li style><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Jones Day and Sidley are likely to have roughly similar billing structures (unless ICANN has an alternative fee arrangement with ICANN specifically), so the likelihood of a significant cost savings by using one top-notch multinational firm instead of another top-notch multinational firm is relatively small.</font></li></ul><div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Greg</font></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Gomes, Chuck <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cgomes@verisign.com" target="_blank">cgomes@verisign.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I don’t disagree with anything Jonathan says but as we try to finish the work, including implementation, to effectively manage costs I believe the following
would be helpful to keep in mind:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The ICANN General Counsel’s office and its primary outside Council firm Jones Day has demonstrated an extreme bias for protecting the corporation
at all costs even when that may conflict with the public interest. In my opinion, that is the primary source of the mistrust in the community and that is why independent legal advice was needed and I believe will be needed going forward. I am not suggesting
that fiduciary responsibilities should be ignored but rather that the Board needs to seek a balance between its fiduciary duties and its commitment to the community instead of always protecting the corporation as they have consistently done. In our meeting
in Istanbul, I thought that Sidley made that point very well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In cases where bias may not be as big a problem (e.g., the IANA trademark) we should compare what it costs to use expertise in the General Counsel’s
office and ICANN’s existing outside Counsel relationships to what it would cost to use Sidley Austin. Of course, there are two key assumptions here: 1) the right level of legal expertise is available; 2) the costs of in-house legal support and ICANN’s existing
outside Counsel is provided.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">From the announcement by NTIA about the planned transition to now, ICANN leadership and some Board members have visibly pushed back on certain strong
accountability mechanisms. It is important to remember that their first plan in responding to NTIA’s request was a top down approach controlled by ICANN instead of a truly bottom-up multi-stakeholder approach; it was only because we united in opposition that
they changed their approach. It was also evident in Buenos Aires that Fadi and some board members were pushing back on some of the accountability mechanisms under consideration. Just to give one example, Fadi expressed a concern that what the CCWG was considering
involved much more than what NTIA does; of course, he is right about that, but it needs to be recognized that the only way to avoid that would be to give the oversight to another government, which is not an option. A multi-stakeholder solution will naturally
involve more than oversight provided by one government. Fadi also pointed out that to satisfy the U.S. Congress, we cannot provide a solution that involves governments inappropriately; I agree with that but he left out the point that to satisfy the U.S. congress
we will have to provide a solution that gives the community the authority to hold ICANN accountable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We need to work to minimize legal costs without compromising our ability to produce the best solutions possible. In my opinion that will still require
independent legal advice to avoid the clearly demonstrated bias described above. Let’s just manage the costs for that advice as effectively as possible.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chuck<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jonathan Robinson [mailto:<a href="mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info" target="_blank">jrobinson@afilias.info</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 27, 2015 1:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Alan Greenberg'; Gomes, Chuck; 'Seun Ojedeji'; 'James Gannon'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><span class=""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CWG-Stewardship] Legal cost reality<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">All,<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">At this stage, we have not seen detailed bills. The bill signed off by the board will have been for the work of Sidley on both CCWG & CWG (to the
best of my knowledge).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I expect the work was most intense as they got up to speed with all of the background information and work of both groups.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That said, I think we do need to work hard to control / manage bills and that was part of the motivation for having the client committee in the
first place.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">A key question for us as a group is when / how do we use Sidley in the pre-NTIA proposal submission phase and in the post-NTIA submission phase?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Two factors which will impact that are (a) the scope as defined in our initial engagement letter and (b) ICANN’s approach to funding.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In any case, I suspect we all have a similar sentiment. Great quality of work and necessary contribution but costs need to be managed as best as
possible.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Jonathan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Alan Greenberg [<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 June 2015 06:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Gomes, Chuck; Seun Ojedeji; James Gannon<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Legal cost reality<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB">Actually Chuck, the Board motion was approval of the costs incurred through 31 March 2015, and Sidley Austin was only engaged on 6 March. So that appears to be the charge for the first 3 weeks
or so.<br>
<br>
My recollection is that they are billing a bit under $1000 per hour, so that would amount (in round numbers to 500 hours or 60 8-hour days in 25 calendar days.<br>
<br>
Our Sidley legal team consists of several people, and presumably for the first week or so, many of them were "catching up", which presumably accounts for a fair part of this. Then, Holly and Sharon were in Istanbul for several days.<br>
<br>
Overall, pretty high, but I am guessing the remaining months had a lower per-month rate.<br>
<br>
Alan<br>
<br>
At 25/06/2015 05:55 PM, Gomes, Chuck wrote<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Sean,<br>
<br>
500k to date not per month.<br>
<br>
Chuck<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
Date:06/25/2015 5:42 PM (GMT-05:00) <br>
To: James Gannon <<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>>
<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank">cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a> <br>
Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] Legal cost reality <br>
<br>
With due respect James, I am in no way belittling the work of legal council. I am rather wondering how we as a community recognising this huge cost did not better strategize on how/when to engage external council. The amount that has been spent on all participants
of the ccwg and cwg(for remote/physical meetings) would seem to be competing with the total cost of legal advice (perhaps legal would even be more).<br>
<br>
The deed has been done and we can't rewrite history. My comment is targeted more on the fact that we need to think of how we engage legal more efficiently going forward.<br>
<br>
For the record, when Greg said top notch council are expensive, 500k monthly is just beyond my imagination!<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
sent from Google nexus 4<br>
kindly excuse brevity and typos.<br>
On 25 Jun 2015 18:23, "James Gannon" <<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" target="_blank">james@cyberinvasion.net</a> > wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Our legal advice has been critical to our process and Sidley have been crucial to our successes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">I think we should be thanking them for their service, and yes top notch legal services are not cheap.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">It is most certainly something that I have no issue with the community exercising its prudence over however lets not limit ourselves in any way to engage with our counsel.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">-James<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">From: <<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"> cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Seun Ojedeji<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">Date: Thursday 25 June 2015 18:15<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">To: "<a href="mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org" target="_blank"> cwg-stewardship@icann.org</a>"<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Subject: [CWG-Stewardship] Legal cost reality<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">I hope those who want to always push issues to external legal advice would appreciate the need to be strategic and prudent about this. Over 500,000USD already spent on Sidley is definitely not what we like ICANN to keep spending it's resources
on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-GB">sent from Google nexus 4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="EN-GB">kindly excuse brevity and typos.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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