[Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

Fri Aug 9 09:31:23 UTC 2019

I tend to agree.
Interested parties could just create a paper for us to peruse prior to the
meeting. I'd rather use the time we have allotted for discussions and
progress rather than for stalling our work.

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On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:06 AM Alan Woods <alan at donuts.email> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> As much as I appreciate the opportunity to hear from experts in the field,
> I am left wondering what is the point, other than genuine, if completely
> general, interest in the subject. We know that now that the industry has
> been forced to finally take notice of data privacy law, the access to the
> data must be better regulated by the industry and this invariably means
> that processes that have been built over years, reliant on unfettered
> public access, and the onward repackaging of such data by third parties
> (need I point out the successful appeal in the .NZ case) has been less than
> above board. I think we are all well aware that problems are faced by those
> who used these streams of data, and we of course have much sympathy for
> those who have built process and procedure over the years reliant on this
> data. That is why we are all sitting at this table, is it not?  A
> presentation on how it's now suddenly difficult to follow those old
> processes is simply not going to help in our task. Can we please focus on
> the actual task as to actually finding the *new* *and realistic* path of
> least resistance, whilst still ensuring that such data sharing is, for
> once, legal.
>
> That being said, I appreciate the offer, and I too would be very
> interested to hear from such a great team, but I am also an advocate of not
> eating into our valuable face-to-face time. I will fully support Chris'
> suggestion to have it presented separately, and recalling the point that
> Kristina raised in Marrakesh, let's record that session and then members
> who are unable to attend, can then review the recording at a time that
> suits them if they so wish.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> [image: Donuts Inc.] <http://donuts.domains>
> Alan Woods
> Senior Compliance & Policy Manager, Donuts Inc.
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> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 8:25 AM LEWIS-EVANS, Christopher <
> Christopher.Lewis-Evans at nca.gov.uk> wrote:
>
>> *OFFICIAL *
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> I think it would be helpful before if you can make it happen as then it
>> will give everyone the ability to get more information for the face to
>> face. We all used to be free on a Tuesday so how about a webinar the
>> Tuesday before the face to face?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gnso-epdp-team [mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Mark Svancarek (CELA) via Gnso-epdp-team
>> *Sent:* 07 August 2019 23:25
>> *To:* gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org; 'EPDP'
>> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations
>> during the LA f2f meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> (resending to correct list)
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to everyone for your feedback.
>>
>>
>>
>> The impetus for a DCU presentation came from a (very) brief exchange
>> between myself and Farzi at the end of a recent meeting.  We  considered
>> that since we encounter questions which can’t be answered during a meeting
>> (e.g. “How does a Doe suit proceed and why is it problematic to a
>> particular use case?”), it would be helpful to interact with a subject
>> matter expert able to answer the many questions we all have regarding these
>> investigations in the real world.
>>
>>
>>
>> I admitted at the time that it might not be popular due to our time
>> constraints, but that I could make it happen at some TBD future date if we
>> collectively agreed that it would be valuable.  Along the way, it turned
>> into a proposal tied to the LA face-to-face meeting, which in retrospect
>> wasn’t a great idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> The remaining alternatives are a webinar (before or after LA) or a
>> presentation/Q&A during a regularly scheduled THU meeting a la Steve
>> Crocker’s BBQ presentation – or to drop the idea entirely.  Of these, I
>> think the webinar idea is best, if we can find a timeslot that works for
>> the majority of EPDP members who are interested in the topic and able to
>> bring tough questions for discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please let me know how you’d like to proceed.
>>
>>
>>
>> /marksv
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org> *On Behalf Of *Anderson,
>> Marc via Gnso-epdp-team
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 6, 2019 10:53 AM
>> *To:* alex at colevalleyconsulting.com; icann at ferdeline.com;
>> gnso-epdp-team at icann.org
>> *Cc:* gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations
>> during the LA f2f meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> I would also be interested in hearing from the Microsoft Digital Crimes
>> Unit, but I don’t feel the LA face to face is the right venue.  So far we
>> received one external briefing during a regular weekly call and two during
>> the lunch block at Marrakesh.  Of those, I thought the one during our
>> weekly call worked better and didn’t think there was anything covered in
>> Marrakesh that required face to face interaction.  My preference would be
>> to invite them to present at a future weekly call.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you to Mark Sv for the offer to invite the Microsoft Digital Crimes
>> Unit to speak to us.  I admit it’s not immediately clear to me from the
>> original email from Janis how this ties to our work, but I assume that Mark
>> would not have suggested this if it didn’t relate to developing policy
>> recommendations on access to non-public registration data.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also want to echo one of Milton’s points about non-working lunches.  In
>> phase 1 we struggled to move forward until we had the LA face to face.  In
>> my view the ability to talk between formal facilitated sessions and over
>> lunch was key to the success in LA and laid the groundwork for much of the
>> work we would later accomplish.  We need to bake in time for those all
>> important side conversations that allow those with opposing positions to
>> talk, share views and develop common positions that can achieve consensus
>> support.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org> *On Behalf Of *Alex
>> Deacon
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:58 PM
>> *To:* Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org; gnso-epdp-team at icann.org
>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time
>> presentations during the LA f2f meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> I would be interested in hearing from the Microsoft DCU team and having
>> the opportunity to ask them questions on how they do what they do.
>>
>>
>>
>> However  I also appreciate Ayden’s strongly held feelings so perhaps we
>> should consider a happy hour presentation at the end of our day allowing us
>> to take full advantage of the facilitators and our time together during the
>> day.
>>
>>
>>
>> What could be more fun than learning about digital crimes investigation
>> while enjoying a cocktail or three?
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 4:14 PM Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sorry, I really do not understand why this would be useful for our
>> face-to-face meeting. I do not oppose having special webinars so that
>> experts can share with us additional information and field our questions.
>> But I worry it would be information overload having these presentations at
>> the face-to-face meeting as well. And if we have external facilitators in
>> Los Angeles next month, I think it would be a better use of this resource
>> to spend what little time we do have in a face-to-face environment focusing
>> on our core work plan, and not having briefings from external presenters
>> that may or may not be relevant to what we have to deal with then. I feel
>> very strongly about this. I am afraid I did not leave the presentations we
>> had in Marrakech from external presenters with any inputs that I have been
>> able to take forward, be it here in this working group or elsewhere at
>> ICANN.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Ayden Férdeline
>>
>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>> On Saturday, 3 August 2019 10:45, Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi <
>> Hadia at tra.gov.eg> wrote:
>>
>> > I totally agree with having presentations during lunch time. Certainly
>> we shall have other opportunities for networking and it does not matter if
>> the information is neutral or not, all members of the EPDP team are
>> intelligent people who can decide which information to consider and which
>> to simply disregard. To have the opportunity to learn more is always good
>> and Milton you had your experience with them already because of a research
>> you were conducting, its a good opportunity for the rest of us to develop
>> our own.
>> >
>> > Best
>> >
>> > Hadia
>> >
>> > From: Gnso-epdp-team gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> Mueller, Milton L milton at gatech.edu
>> > Sent: 03 August 2019 05:20
>> > To: Alan Greenberg
>> > Cc: gnso-epdp-team at icann.org; gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations
>> during the LA f2f meeting
>> >
>> > First, it’s not true that working lunches haven’t accomplished much -
>> they have
>> >
>> > Second, how about a bloody non-working lunch? Or two? Where we can chat
>> and informally network? We will be working intensively for 8 hours at least.
>> >
>> > Third, it is simply not true that routing useful
>> > Info through epdp team members requires “extraordinary time” nor is it
>> true that you save time doing it the other way (indeed, that’s obviously a
>> self-contradictory position.) We are discussing use cases at length and any
>> information or arguments made in those discussions should not be given a
>> privileged status, they come in via team members.
>> >
>> > Milton L Mueller
>> > Professor, School of Public Policy
>> > Georgia Institute of Technology
>> >
>> > On Aug 2, 2019, at 19:29, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.camailto
>> :alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> > I disagree. Working lunch meetings rarely accomplish much, so
>> scheduling what may be an interesting presentation, even if from a
>> particular perspective (and known to be) can be both informative and
>> useful. Those who choose to just eat and not pay attention are free to do
>> so.
>> >
>> > The suggestion to route any useful information through a EPDP member
>> presumes we will be willing to give a member a significant and
>> extraordinary time slot to do so and I would not advocate doing that.
>> >
>> > We have three lunch slots and I would welcome other presentations of
>> interest/use for the other two days.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > At 02/08/2019 06:55 PM, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>> >
>> > Janis,
>> > Much as I would love to hear more about MSFTâ€™s digital crimes unit (I
>> already have seen some of their presentations and weâ€™ve interviewed one
>> of their botnet fighters in connection with research we are doing) I think
>> after our not-so-great experiences with external presentations in Marrakech
>> the group really needs to â€œjust say noâ€� to any additional
>> presentations of this sort. Please, letâ€™s not encourage these requests
>> anymore, letâ€™s put an end to this precedent.
>> >
>> > We have to be aware of the fact that these presentations are not
>> neutral and purely informational, they come from serious players with a
>> stake in the process. Microsoft is represented on the EPDP and through the
>> BC. IF they can bring useful information to bear on our discussions of use
>> cases they can do it through their EPDP representative in line with our
>> regular discussions, in which we all have equal status.
>> >
>> > Dr. Milton L Mueller
>> > Georgia Institute of Technology
>> > School of Public Policy
>> >
>> > From: Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.orgmailto:
>> gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of Ayden FÃ©rdeline
>> > Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 6:58 AM
>> > To: Janis Karklins <karklinsj at gmail.commailto:karklinsj at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: gnso-epdp-lead at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org;
>> gnso-epdp-team at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations
>> during the LA f2f meeting
>> >
>> > It is a very short face-to-face meeting, and I imagine we will have a
>> lot on the agenda and hopefully the excellent external facilitators
>> present. I would prefer that we not have any additional, external
>> presenters during the face-to-face - though I am certainly happy to join a
>> webinar over the coming weeks to hear what anyone has to say.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > Ayden FÃ©rdeline
>> >
>> > â€�â€�â€�â€�â€�â€�â€� Original Message â€�â€�â€�â€�â€�â€�â€�
>> > On Friday, 2 August 2019 05:30, Janis Karklins
>> <karklinsj at gmail.commailto:karklinsj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear team members,
>> >
>> > I am writing to you in inform that I have received offer from Mark
>> Svancarek to bring an expert from Microsoftâ€™s Digital Crimes Unit and to
>> make a (lunch time) presentation of their routine practices in
>> investigating cases of concern to Microsoft. I think such a presentation
>> would help us foster understand challenges facing digital wrongdoing
>> investigators from private companies.
>> >
>> > I also would like to ask if there would be any other experts who could
>> make lunchtime presentations either onsite or remotely.
>> >
>> > I would be grateful for your thoughts on the proposal above.
>> >
>> > Thank you
>> > JK
>> >
>> > Gnso-epdp-team mailing list
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